The Power of Police Work - Travis Hilliard

Show Transcript

Announcer: 0:04

Welcome to frame of reference informed intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world, in depth interviews with salt counties, leaders and professionals to help you expand in and form your frame of reference, brought to you by the max FM digital network. Now, here's your host, Rauel LaBreche.

Rauel LaBreche:

 0:26

Well, welcome to another edition of frame of reference. We, we had been having a discussion started last week with Travis Hilliard, who is a good friend of mine, we have known each other for a number of years. I met him shortly after my wife and I moved into the community. And at that point, Travis was a fairly new officer on the force, because, gosh, she's was a member of the police officer or a member of the police force for 30 years. And my wife and I have lived here for just about 30 years. So I think he and I came to the community about the same time. And I think I said in the first episode, how it struck me right away that if this is the kind of police officer that we have in Sauk, Prairie, man if I ever moved to the right place, so because he was bright and fun and funny, and yet I could tell he also knew the law. And he knew that, I think more importantly, had the wisdom to know, perhaps the best way to enforce that law. Because I you know, Travis, again, thank you. Welcome. You're welcome. I appreciate you being here. And I appreciate your your candor and your openness and your willingness to talk about policing. I mean, it is it's a tough job. And it strikes me that there, there's probably much more than two, but it strikes me there are the people that come to please work, because they just really like the idea of enforcing the law, right? I want to be the hammer, you know, that comes down on disorder and chaos, and does what's right and good stuff, bad guy all the time, right, there's that. And then there are the people that I would put you more in the category of the person that wants to just make life better for the community that you live in. And the law is one of the tools that you use for that. But it's not the only tool in your tool case, either. So and you've been learning that, over 30 years, you recruit in fact, now your consulting is really based on really that learning.

Travis Hilliard:

 2:19

Right? Exactly. It's it's based on, you know, the quality of life that you want the quality of the environment in which you live in. And I think a lot of it is, is understanding whether we're enforcing laws or enforcing ordinances. It's like a broken window theory, you've got a building in your neighborhood that you know, has one broken window cracked window, well, you can guarantee if you don't address that all those windows gonna be broken out here shortly. Sure, you know, and kind of deal and I think you're doing your work through the people, establishing relationships, relationship based, you know, conversations with people to where they know you by face, they know you by conversation, they know, they can, they can understand how you might be processing this or thinking about this. And I think that is what's so crucial today and in the profession, a lot force, it's a great profession, when change a thing, and I encourage people to go into it daily. But the fact is, is the caveat to that is understanding is that you are working with the quality of life, you know, the days of getting in there and, you know, wearing your wooden baton and your ring and saying, you know, we're gonna have peace in order here. Once these are gone, you know, we need to work closely with the public and, and have good conversation and have an understanding. And it's not us against them and go back to Sir Robert Peel, you know, are part of that community per se. That hasn't changed, you know. And

Rauel LaBreche:

 3:42

so Robert Peel, he's the guy that started Metropolitan Police.

Travis Hilliard:

 3:47

In London, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And in, in based on on the community aspect. Sure. Being able to work with people have an understanding is crucial. I think I and I always sit back and you got to be humbled to say, what I expect, you know, what, what, what do I appreciate? And I'll tell you what a turning point. I was, like 10 years old. And I'll tell you, I was, you know, I could violate any fishing game law out there at 10 years old. Why? Because you just you didn't really realize you're doing it. But I remember I was I was snagging fish and I had a bucket of 60 platter sized crappies in the millpond Blue Lake Mason and Briggs Well, I was by myself 10 years old. And I remember this to a tee I looked up the bank and I saw this what I thought was a Dodge Diplomat back then. Rose Oh station, right or something. I'm like, it's kind of all looking car. Next I knew we had to keyboard and standing behind me. And and they knew me and they said Travis, what are you doing? I said, Snake and fish. I'll show you how I'm doing it. And so I snagged through right I had trouble hook and I was a pro at this. And I was 10 years old sexual limitations while beyond me. I said well, you can't do that. I'm like, huh Wiley what Okay, but I'm doing it, I'm doing it. And so Musa say, they marched me with all my fish to release my face. They marched me to my mom and dad's restaurant, they sat me down and bought me lunch. And they explained stuff and we just chatted. And then the following weekend, I went on a ride along with him. I was 10 years old. And that was the pivotal point. But I remember this to this day, and this is kind of how my philosophy night. Don't get me wrong. I've gotten, you know, you know, they're always Travis to the user. You spend a lot of time those people on your social worker. But I remember that is that's that kind of formed my emotional attachment. And that was so important. When I was 10 years old on what these game wardens did. Sure, they could drug me up, you know, wrote me a juvenile ticket for it, and boom, boom, boom, but they didn't write, they really capitalize that moment. And these are good guys. So has that. I wonder if that isn't foundationally. What happens when I hear about the system is broken? When I hear about things like we've got to defund police departments, because they're This is so bad that the only way to fix it is to tear it all down and completely rebuild it. And that seems to me in one respect, well, he sometimes the way you fix a building, you have to just take it down completely and rebuild from the foundation up. But I'm not, I'm not convinced, I guess that that is the best solution. And, and yet, it does seem somewhere along the line, like we've lost the ability to relate to people, whether it's, I'm a white officer, and you're a black citizen, or I am a black officer, and you're white citizen, or I'm a Jewish officer, and you're a Catholic citizen. I mean, all of those types have gotten in the way of Yeah, but I'm a human. You're a human. It's not like I'm dealing with a rabid raccoon here. Don't you know, there's some ability to reason so so how do you how do you break that barrier between just because I have a bad John doesn't mean that I'm a jerk. And just because you've got a wife beater t shirt on doesn't mean that you're a jerk. Right? Or whatever. Yeah, I think I really think even defund the police. We got to take the problem. We're seeing the white beard, but everybody knows what that is. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, this, it's us against them, regardless of age, race, whatever, political movement, whatever, go on, you're the guy with a gun show, you got the ability to do something, right, that, you know, you can hurt me and much worse than I can hurt you. Unless I'm, you know, concealed carry or whatever. So and then you like, I like what a but but this this emotional charge again, you know, it's like, there are so many, I can't tell you the number of times that officers in this community have brought bought peanut butter loaves of bread for people give people rides, we were constantly doing that in across the nation, you know that the officers stop and play wiffle ball and play basketball. And, you know, we're just seeing the, the emotional charge of a bad deal or bad incident of something that should have gone differently. But it didn't, you know, we get it, we get it. But it's an unfortunate event. But let's say for that one unfortunate event, we got 300 Good events going on. But those don't really matter. Because, you know, it's who cares about that? Right? That's, that's, that's the expectation. That's what you should be doing all the time. But this one did us and always say it's kind of like school buses. You know, you see one school bus speed, guess what? They're all speeding, because they all look the same rate, I'll wear the badge. And I'll do that when you start looking for school buses speeding to see one speed. You're looking you're looking for it because I want to prove that yeah, those school bus drivers, they're not safe drivers. Right. So so is the system broken? I mean, and I wonder, honestly, if it isn't the police system that's broken, that our, our society, our culture is broken, because we can't look at you and just see you we have to see a black guy or we have to see, you know, somebody that you know, looks different than you get really long hair. You got really short hair, you must be a skinhead. You know, I mean, they're somewhere along the line, where does that system get fixed? So that we start looking at each other? And just wanting to know the story? Yeah, I think it'd be it begins with each individual. It begins the way you think it's the way you process it's your life experiences. It's what you don't experience versus what you are experiencing. And I think that's the easy route. You know, I'm just this this is because this is the way I am. I know. You know, nine out of 10 people that I know is like just the way it has no sway it should be like really, I agree with tweet gravitate towards that one out of 10 to say you know what? You can see a lot of different things. And I appreciate that perspective. Because I think you get more done that way. And it becomes begins with one person at a time, opening up your eyes and saying, hey, you know what? I could care less what you're doing, because it doesn't affect me. You know, it's just like, the comes down to that, that emotional charge. If I can needle someone emotionally and get to their their root cause, oh, yeah, I'll get them excited. But why? Why do I need to do that to somebody?

Rauel LaBreche:

 10:29

Do you see that when, in your years in law enforcement to do see those people that are calling Twizzlers? You know, they just like to stir up the drink? Yeah. What's the what's the root thing going on there? Is that just another form of power play?

Travis Hilliard:

 10:46

Well, I think you look at it this way is is, you know, you look at the diamond of psychology behind it. I'm no psychologist, trust me, but it's like, are they insecure? Or something? Is it always a little bit more, does that make them feel a bit better to rip on someone else versus really looking internally, because I have a tremendous amount of friends that don't do that. But I know a tremendous amount of people that do do that. And the differences, the people that that I hang out with, are totally fine with themselves, that I'm willing to prove they're okay with what they have, or what they don't have their rate pretty well regulated to, you know, but but the people I know that are constantly doing is like, Wow, man, that's all. I couldn't imagine getting up and having to work so hard to tear someone else down. To make yourself gain What what are you gaining? kind of deal?

Rauel LaBreche:

 11:36

Are you able to have? Have you had instances where you've had that discussion with a person of that mindset, almost definitely unable to get them to shift

Travis Hilliard:

 11:45

at all? You know, I've had a lot of success with kids, okay, you know, to the point where we can talk about this, whether it's a bullying issue, whether it's something else is like, you know, let's let's really talk about this and you do it over a course of time you establish rapport, you can't do it if you don't have a report or relationship with these people, right? Because they don't respect you, you just, you're just another person telling me what you think. Or if you're a cop, telling adult US you're just a cop telling you me what you got to think we're pretty that's that's relationship based importance of this, if you establish relationship, say, hey, you know, what, we're gonna have a chat here, this is what I'm seeing, take for what it's worth. But the fact is, is, maybe we need to change something, you might look at things differently, and it's not gonna bother you that right? You know, and I see that with with our aging population, too, is like, they get so wrapped up over certain things. It's like, you know, when you're younger, Did that bother you? No, I didn't. But let's do this. Let's shut the TV off. Let's turn off that one channel, whatever that channel might be. And let's go outside and just listen to the birds. And really, and sometimes hurt evolve. Yeah, that's for tricky waters, you know? And maybe that's something I encourage everyone to say, hey, you know, maybe change up your day? Yeah, you typically walk this way, walk a different way. Yeah. You know, and I think that's so important for, for people. Yeah. Yeah. Because we are just higher, you know,

Rauel LaBreche:

 13:09

when you would hope. I mean, and it's interesting, because, you know, Dr. McAuliffe had been, show with me a number of times, particularly in the midst of the COVID situation, and he talked regularly about the sort of fear of flight, or, you know, the, the fight or flight kind of mechanisms to that, you know, until we can get a move out of the baser part of our brain where we're just reacting to something viscerally, you know, and I'm either going to fight it, or I'm going to run from it, right? And how true that I'm sure, you probably see that over and over again, as a police officer, that people are either really afraid, and they tend to respond one way, or they're really angry, and they turn tend to respond away another way. And the key is to get them up into the other brain, the frontal cortex, where they start thinking about the actions and having those discussions. Is there a is there a magic bullet there for making that getting someone to calm down? I mean, some people just have to put them behind bars overnight, so they get you know, sobered up and can think again, or

Travis Hilliard:

 14:18

you balance that out, you balance out the public safety concept, you know, and or what did that person do? Or their, their their conversation, their words, and their body language, you know, there is there is an opportunity to wear, that's the only way they can cool down. And in essence, you know, take take a timeout and set a timeout because on the other end, we need to set up a safety plan for the victim we need we need some time to buy to say hey, what do we need do for you? Is it is it set up some counseling, is it a shelter? Is it you know, rearrange making arrangements with your children, all this kind of stuff? Sure. So at that at that level there is there a system plays that we need to take care of to ensure the safety, you know, from a domestic violence standpoint is there?

Rauel LaBreche:

 15:06

What about the people that just don't learn? I mean, when I see things like, you know, seven or eight DUIs, you know. And, you know, there's the part of me that is like, How in the world? Is that person still on the road? Yeah. So and one level, I'm thinking the system is really broken, that that person can still be driving anywhere. And yet, I also understand that well, you know, it's not like you could check for your license every time you get in the car. So perhaps people just think, well, I'll you know, do it and, you know, get away with it, because who's gonna stop me just to see if I have a license? Right? Yeah. But then there's also the part of me that's like, well, what is it that happens in that individual that they just keep doing that same dumb thing, and really dangerous, and really, you know, thoughtless thing, because, you know, you're basically getting into a loaded weapon, if you're drunk, and you're driving. So what's the difference? Or what what do you think happens that people don't learn their lessons, and other people like, right away? They don't want to do something wrong. And they do. Oh, my God, I did you know, you're the kid that I didn't know I couldn't snake fish. I will never do that promise officer, I promise.

Travis Hilliard:

 16:18

Exactly. Exactly. Where's the difference? But I think a lot of it is is under having that. That subconscious. You know, what is your subconscious telling you? There is an you know, anytime we're dealing with the alcohol issue, we're dealing with a disease, you know, alcoholism as an alcoholic is a disease or columns and disease. And sometimes they just, they don't have an extended family to intervene, like the kids say, Dad, I'm taking your keys away, your mom taking your keys away, and you're not driving. And a lot of these folks don't have that, that outside source coming in. So you balance out that the brain chemistry of what's what's right and what's not wrong, or vice versa, right. I'm dealing with the disease. And, you know, I've had that conversation, a lot of people's like, how can how can the system be failing? Well, the systems aren't really failing. It's, it's, you know, the system's doing its job. But the question is, what do you do something like that, you know, recidivism, and we're looking at this. And I always, always use the analogy of, you know, if you're a smoker, you're addicted to the chemical and nicotine. And you've had two massive heart attacks and three bypasses, but you continue to smoke. What is that costing? What is that costing? You know, what is it costing a family, the individual health care, all these different things? And all of a sudden, people say, or, what? I never thought of it that way, or, Hey, you know what, I'm a diabetic, but I really love Smarties. And they eat them all day long. And I'm dysregulated and all that kind of stuff. Well, should you be placed in a hospital for the rest of your life? Probably not, we just need to deal with the cause and effect to kind of deal and the underlying condition. And it goes back to the system is only good as a the person involved in the system. You know, stop doing that. I'll stop doing it. That's up to subconscious. But if you're an alcoholic, and you've got 13 bottles of booze stashed around your your residence in your barn, your neighbor's car, I know, I can't drive, I know, I don't have a driver's license, but what's stopping me kind of deal? And it's that and I think that's where that mental health component comes in that at the therapy and in counseling, but there's no money to do that. Yeah, you know, that's a whole nother level. And that counseling aspect is only good as a person involved in it. If it's court ordered, seriously, say court ordered, I gotta clean up this property I'm gonna break up all the leaves fall I don't have to come back. Right. And it's only as good as it can be in and I think it comes down to that's a good question. I don't know that the answer to it, but I understand the dynamics that are involved in trying to fix that

Rauel LaBreche:

 18:59

train. Why at the end of the day, you know, I do a lot of training and the training to me always comes down to I can provide the resources for someone to be trained, I can provide the show, you know, yes, training that material and presenting that material but at the end of the day the only person that trains anyone is you Yeah, you know, so when when at the end of the day, I've got to make the decision that I want to take this thing this nugget whatever it is and apply it to my life. And I don't know You know, I don't that's like the quandary of freewill you know why in the Lord did God ever give us free will? Why didn't you just make it so that these are all laws? Follow them. Okay, sir. And away we went. Perfect society, right. No, right away. We had to break the first rule and say, you know, well, but that looks like awfully good. croute I mean, I guess why don't you want me to have that fruit that the fruit looks really good. Yeah. And under sneaking keeps going around and saying, Well, he didn't want to have that fruit because, well, that same thing that's happening today. and you have like those different voices that are going well, you know, getting high right now would be really fun at would you know? And you know, you could go see your friends you know and get together with them it can get high. Yeah would

Travis Hilliard:

 20:15

change his heart. When you're changing, you're going in that unfamiliar territory that you're like, I've never been here before. I'm going to resort back to what's normal, what's comfortable and that's that grabbing a bottle. It's it's doing this it's doing that because that's what I've always done.

Rauel LaBreche:

 20:28

We tend to make change look boring too, right? Yeah. Is it doing the right thing? It's so boring, right? So

Travis Hilliard:

 20:33

boring. Yeah, I'm gonna change I'm gonna change the way I'm thinking. And that's hard.

Rauel LaBreche:

 20:38

That's hard. Yeah, it's hard. I don't like the sound of that. No, give me a doobie I'd rather have Yeah,

Travis Hilliard:

 20:43

just relax. Just chill. You know.

Rauel LaBreche:

 20:48

My guest today is traverse failure. 30 year veteran of the sock police force, but also now doing some private consulting with our school systems and Madison College and just all kinds of thing as in safety and police work and procedural things that are a real benefit. I know you're doing some work with COVID like tracing and whatnot as well. So you've had an opportunity to kind of take all of your 30 years of experience in applied in some new and some same ventures right yep, as a private consultant. But we're gonna take another quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. And we'll be back here to talk some more and kind of talk about the legacy of Travis and some of the systematic things that maybe are even deeper but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back here on 99. Seven Max FM's digital network and frame of reference. It's just nuts to shop anywhere other than Macfarlanes Your one stop True Value Hardware store or in hand tools paint housewares cards and gift wrap small appliances, lawn and garden care grills and grill supplies, automotive repair and maintenance products, plumbing and electrical project supplies, furnace supplies, you get the idea get what you need in Macfarlanes True Value Hardware it's all here under one big 200,000 square foot roof and Macfarlanes in Sauk city one box off of Highway 27 at Carolina Street and we're back here on frame of reference and my guest is Travis fuller 30 year veteran of our very own saw prey police force until recently when he retired went into police, police and protective kinds of consultation work how do I describe it Travis just

Travis Hilliard:

 22:23

to see if the safety and security consulting okay you know and with with the caveat with a human being in mind okay, you know, how can we look at people on how can we create a safe environment with with people not the the nuts and bolts of locks and cameras and stuff but

Rauel LaBreche:

 22:39

people okay, so really, it's sounds like almost a psychological

Travis Hilliard:

 22:43

safety, safety ploy ease and sure knowing who's in your building and understanding what kind of making your

Rauel LaBreche:

 22:49

only safety assessments for are you keeping yourself safe, right? Yes. Okay. All of those things. So we were talking when we took a break, we started getting on the one of the big questions that happens regularly, you know, and when you see something like a George Floyd situation, and then shortly thereafter, there was another situation of a female police officer up in Minneapolis and pulling someone over thinking she was getting your Taser actually pulled out her gun shoots and kills, you know, those situations happening with enough regularity. And obviously, with a ton of sensation ality because those things sell papers, and they get people watching and they want to know more. And it gets the fuel, you know, fuels the fires that have been going just rampantly in our culture. And yet, do we use that as a intellectual springboard for see the system is broken? This should not be happening. How can this happen? How was that officer allowed to carry a gun? You know, what's going on here? And that's not the whole story. I mean, you know, I don't know that we the general population ever gets to hear the whole story. Because it's so clouded by what sells, and, and clouded by a pretty bad history. I mean, you know, when you look back at police forces in the South, in particular, back in the 50s, and the 60s, and before that, you know, where you can actually look in pictures and see law officers as part of the posse that hung a black man purse, apparently, you know, whistling at a woman, you see that stuff and realize, well, yeah, that we earned this as a society. How do we get back from that mean? What, from your perspective, what what are the root issues there? How does a dirt Shogun situation happen? Is there. Have you seen things that explain that in a way that maybe would help us to get a different frame of reference? Hmm, there's the title of the show,

Travis Hilliard:

 24:54

I think what's what's really important to understand whether it's a direct show in deal or whether it's whether That's any situation in any type of workplace. That was it was an exacerbated example with a derrick Shogun. And I think what's really important is I go back to that the human ality of window of tolerance. Are you regulated? Are you dysregulated. And I don't know anything more than any of us know about the Derek show and deal from watching the trial and watching the news media and so forth. But one thing I really keen on is body language and body behavior. And in I gaze, and everything else, I can only speculate, but he wasn't home, when when that was going on. You know, we have in Wisconsin, we have different things we have to follow from monitoring, debriefing to follow through and making sure, you know, we need medical attention and all these things for the quality of that person's life, you know, and I look at where, whether he was in a process of freezing, that he forgot what he's doing. He wasn't feeling that, that the body underneath him because the scene was secure. And and I think, as, as anything, we talked about the system's broken, I think some people are broken. I think, if we use a terminology of the system is broken. I really like to dissect that and say, the some people in the system break the system kind of deals where the derrick Sean's of the world is, you know, there's something psychologically going on there where he's not home, he's, you know, you got to attend to that person, that person is your full responsibility. At some

Rauel LaBreche:

 26:39

point, there should have been a catch a catch for us that says, something's gone wrong here. Yep. Why don't I look at that situation, and just what I what I've seen in psychological terms, because I was a psych major, and I have a tendency to kind of filter through that. And what concern me more than anything, honestly, was not that Yes. What Shogun did was absolutely wrong. I don't understand how he could be on on George plate for eight plus minutes and not have gone. No, I'm done. This was done along. I got, you know, on the guy screaming mama, he's gonna kill you, whatever. How could he be so checked out? But then there were also three other officers there that, you know, allowed that to transpire as well. So you think okay, what is that a training thing? Is that a lack of respect for human life? Is that a, you know, we put him in George Floyd into a category that says he doesn't deserve the sort of, you know, due process or human respect that I would give anyone? And then on the outside, we look at and say, Well, you know, you never see anything about, you know, white cops or black cops killing white people. No, that's not. That's not the issue either. Right? No, no. So how do we keep on the issue of keeping police officers well enough, that they can do their job well enough.

Travis Hilliard:

 27:58

And I think it comes down to we have a term within policing on infield Training, we call it discretionary override, to where your supervising officer is going to basically tap you out, you know, tap him on the shoulder all Hey, you know what, why don't you go? See if EMS is on his way, or whatever? Well, we'll change it up. And that gives you an opportunity, because you're breaking up that that thinking process like oh, okay, I got you. Well, in his

Rauel LaBreche:

 28:24

case, he was a supervising officer, too. So how do you keep the supervising the top dog base,

Travis Hilliard:

 28:30

and that's a change of culture, you got to change that culture, seeing that, hey, I don't care if you've only been on the job, you know, three weeks, and I've been here 30 years, you see something, you say something? And, and that's a culture that, that that has to be done. And I don't know what the culture is that department. But you know, the prior like, Hey, he's, you know, senior guy, he's got this under control. Who am I to say anything different, right? But that's, that's that piece. You know, that's, that's what we need to change.

Rauel LaBreche:

 29:04

It sounds like you have to, we have to figure out a way to teach people how to think how to keep you they got

Travis Hilliard:

 29:11

to thank you, you got a process. You're dealing with a live human being. Yeah. And you know what, all you're doing is you don't don't forget why you're there. And what's the end result? What is your goal in this whole situation here is to make sure everyone's safe and to get to the bottom of what the call for service was? Sure. And, and I think we lose that sight of like, you know, well, that's let's slow things down. Let's breathe. Let's do some autogenic breathing, some combat breathing and think through this because if we're not breathing, we're not thinking, right.

Rauel LaBreche:

 29:46

Yeah, training is really difficult when I think about the times where I've been the most emotionally charged. When I'm, you know, at you know, it's like the Spinal Tap, you know, I'm not at 10 my amp goes to 11 You know, painted on there even in those moments, the amount of training and the commitment to training that's necessary to be able to in those moments, stop and say, breaks on breaks on art, you know, and thank God, there are friends that are there. I mean, you know, to have the the people that in my case, my wife has been great at being able to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, mister, whoa, whoa, whoa. And, you know, initially, I mean, like, it's not fair. You're not seeing my son. Yeah. But she's seeing the right side here. Yeah, she's deregulated and are regulated enough to see that? How do we change the system to allow for that kind of thinking? And that kind of check and balance into what is obvio