The third episode in our series on Police work in the 21st century. Not the procedures but the people behind the badge. I continue my discussion with Travis Hilliard, 30 year veteran of law enforcement roles turned security and safety consultant in our hamlet just outside of Madison, WI. The word Police seems to elicit passionate support or passionate fear and sometimes contempt, but in all cases, we need to remember that we're talking about people. Travis does a fantastic job of articulating some of the factors that come into play and some of the issues and concerns that citizens and officers should consider as we work together to form in the words of Abraham Lincoln a "more perfect union".
Travis grew up in Briggsville Wisconsin, a small community in Marquette County. His parents owned the Pheasant Inn restaurant and resort, where along with his brother and sister, they spent most of their time working in every facet of the restaurant and resort business. When not working, he was either water skiing on Lake Mason, wading through Neenah Creek or in the winter months, ice skating or playing hockey on the lake.
He graduated from Wisconsin Dells High School in1988, and then went on to study Natural Resources and Environmental Law Enforcement at the University of Wisconsin in Stevens Point where he graduated in 1993. While working on his degree he was hired by the DNR in 1990 and worked there until 2014 as a Deputy Conservation Warden. Then shortly after getting his degree In 1994, he was hired by the Sauk Prairie Police Department where he worked until 2021.
Travis is married, has 2 children and is owner and CEO of Sandhill Safety and Security Consultants. The business focuses on a multitude of safety related topics with people at the forefront. He also works for Madison College in the Law Enforcement Academy program and is employed by the Cooperative Educational Service Agency.
Announcer: 0:04
Welcome to frame of reference informed intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world, in depth interviews with salt counties, leaders and professionals to help you expand in and form your frame of reference, brought to you by the max FM digital network. Now, here's your host, Rauel LaBreche.
Rauel LaBreche:
0:26
Well, welcome to another edition of frame of reference. We, we had been having a discussion started last week with Travis Hilliard, who is a good friend of mine, we have known each other for a number of years. I met him shortly after my wife and I moved into the community. And at that point, Travis was a fairly new officer on the force, because, gosh, she's was a member of the police officer or a member of the police force for 30 years. And my wife and I have lived here for just about 30 years. So I think he and I came to the community about the same time. And I think I said in the first episode, how it struck me right away that if this is the kind of police officer that we have in Sauk, Prairie, man if I ever moved to the right place, so because he was bright and fun and funny, and yet I could tell he also knew the law. And he knew that, I think more importantly, had the wisdom to know, perhaps the best way to enforce that law. Because I you know, Travis, again, thank you. Welcome. You're welcome. I appreciate you being here. And I appreciate your your candor and your openness and your willingness to talk about policing. I mean, it is it's a tough job. And it strikes me that there, there's probably much more than two, but it strikes me there are the people that come to please work, because they just really like the idea of enforcing the law, right? I want to be the hammer, you know, that comes down on disorder and chaos, and does what's right and good stuff, bad guy all the time, right, there's that. And then there are the people that I would put you more in the category of the person that wants to just make life better for the community that you live in. And the law is one of the tools that you use for that. But it's not the only tool in your tool case, either. So and you've been learning that, over 30 years, you recruit in fact, now your consulting is really based on really that learning.
Travis Hilliard:
2:19
Right? Exactly. It's it's based on, you know, the quality of life that you want the quality of the environment in which you live in. And I think a lot of it is, is understanding whether we're enforcing laws or enforcing ordinances. It's like a broken window theory, you've got a building in your neighborhood that you know, has one broken window cracked window, well, you can guarantee if you don't address that all those windows gonna be broken out here shortly. Sure, you know, and kind of deal and I think you're doing your work through the people, establishing relationships, relationship based, you know, conversations with people to where they know you by face, they know you by conversation, they know, they can, they can understand how you might be processing this or thinking about this. And I think that is what's so crucial today and in the profession, a lot force, it's a great profession, when change a thing, and I encourage people to go into it daily. But the fact is, is the caveat to that is understanding is that you are working with the quality of life, you know, the days of getting in there and, you know, wearing your wooden baton and your ring and saying, you know, we're gonna have peace in order here. Once these are gone, you know, we need to work closely with the public and, and have good conversation and have an understanding. And it's not us against them and go back to Sir Robert Peel, you know, are part of that community per se. That hasn't changed, you know. And
Rauel LaBreche:
3:42
so Robert Peel, he's the guy that started Metropolitan Police.
Travis Hilliard:
3:47
In London, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And in, in based on on the community aspect. Sure. Being able to work with people have an understanding is crucial. I think I and I always sit back and you got to be humbled to say, what I expect, you know, what, what, what do I appreciate? And I'll tell you what a turning point. I was, like 10 years old. And I'll tell you, I was, you know, I could violate any fishing game law out there at 10 years old. Why? Because you just you didn't really realize you're doing it. But I remember I was I was snagging fish and I had a bucket of 60 platter sized crappies in the millpond Blue Lake Mason and Briggs Well, I was by myself 10 years old. And I remember this to a tee I looked up the bank and I saw this what I thought was a Dodge Diplomat back then. Rose Oh station, right or something. I'm like, it's kind of all looking car. Next I knew we had to keyboard and standing behind me. And and they knew me and they said Travis, what are you doing? I said, Snake and fish. I'll show you how I'm doing it. And so I snagged through right I had trouble hook and I was a pro at this. And I was 10 years old sexual limitations while beyond me. I said well, you can't do that. I'm like, huh Wiley what Okay, but I'm doing it, I'm doing it. And so Musa say, they marched me with all my fish to release my face. They marched me to my mom and dad's restaurant, they sat me down and bought me lunch. And they explained stuff and we just chatted. And then the following weekend, I went on a ride along with him. I was 10 years old. And that was the pivotal point. But I remember this to this day, and this is kind of how my philosophy night. Don't get me wrong. I've gotten, you know, you know, they're always Travis to the user. You spend a lot of time those people on your social worker. But I remember that is that's that kind of formed my emotional attachment. And that was so important. When I was 10 years old on what these game wardens did. Sure, they could drug me up, you know, wrote me a juvenile ticket for it, and boom, boom, boom, but they didn't write, they really capitalize that moment. And these are good guys. So has that. I wonder if that isn't foundationally. What happens when I hear about the system is broken? When I hear about things like we've got to defund police departments, because they're This is so bad that the only way to fix it is to tear it all down and completely rebuild it. And that seems to me in one respect, well, he sometimes the way you fix a building, you have to just take it down completely and rebuild from the foundation up. But I'm not, I'm not convinced, I guess that that is the best solution. And, and yet, it does seem somewhere along the line, like we've lost the ability to relate to people, whether it's, I'm a white officer, and you're a black citizen, or I am a black officer, and you're white citizen, or I'm a Jewish officer, and you're a Catholic citizen. I mean, all of those types have gotten in the way of Yeah, but I'm a human. You're a human. It's not like I'm dealing with a rabid raccoon here. Don't you know, there's some ability to reason so so how do you how do you break that barrier between just because I have a bad John doesn't mean that I'm a jerk. And just because you've got a wife beater t shirt on doesn't mean that you're a jerk. Right? Or whatever. Yeah, I think I really think even defund the police. We got to take the problem. We're seeing the white beard, but everybody knows what that is. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, this, it's us against them, regardless of age, race, whatever, political movement, whatever, go on, you're the guy with a gun show, you got the ability to do something, right, that, you know, you can hurt me and much worse than I can hurt you. Unless I'm, you know, concealed carry or whatever. So and then you like, I like what a but but this this emotional charge again, you know, it's like, there are so many, I can't tell you the number of times that officers in this community have brought bought peanut butter loaves of bread for people give people rides, we were constantly doing that in across the nation, you know that the officers stop and play wiffle ball and play basketball. And, you know, we're just seeing the, the emotional charge of a bad deal or bad incident of something that should have gone differently. But it didn't, you know, we get it, we get it. But it's an unfortunate event. But let's say for that one unfortunate event, we got 300 Good events going on. But those don't really matter. Because, you know, it's who cares about that? Right? That's, that's, that's the expectation. That's what you should be doing all the time. But this one did us and always say it's kind of like school buses. You know, you see one school bus speed, guess what? They're all speeding, because they all look the same rate, I'll wear the badge. And I'll do that when you start looking for school buses speeding to see one speed. You're looking you're looking for it because I want to prove that yeah, those school bus drivers, they're not safe drivers. Right. So so is the system broken? I mean, and I wonder, honestly, if it isn't the police system that's broken, that our, our society, our culture is broken, because we can't look at you and just see you we have to see a black guy or we have to see, you know, somebody that you know, looks different than you get really long hair. You got really short hair, you must be a skinhead. You know, I mean, they're somewhere along the line, where does that system get fixed? So that we start looking at each other? And just wanting to know the story? Yeah, I think it'd be it begins with each individual. It begins the way you think it's the way you process it's your life experiences. It's what you don't experience versus what you are experiencing. And I think that's the easy route. You know, I'm just this this is because this is the way I am. I know. You know, nine out of 10 people that I know is like just the way it has no sway it should be like really, I agree with tweet gravitate towards that one out of 10 to say you know what? You can see a lot of different things. And I appreciate that perspective. Because I think you get more done that way. And it becomes begins with one person at a time, opening up your eyes and saying, hey, you know what? I could care less what you're doing, because it doesn't affect me. You know, it's just like, the comes down to that, that emotional charge. If I can needle someone emotionally and get to their their root cause, oh, yeah, I'll get them excited. But why? Why do I need to do that to somebody?
Rauel LaBreche:
10:29
Do you see that when, in your years in law enforcement to do see those people that are calling Twizzlers? You know, they just like to stir up the drink? Yeah. What's the what's the root thing going on there? Is that just another form of power play?
Travis Hilliard:
10:46
Well, I think you look at it this way is is, you know, you look at the diamond of psychology behind it. I'm no psychologist, trust me, but it's like, are they insecure? Or something? Is it always a little bit more, does that make them feel a bit better to rip on someone else versus really looking internally, because I have a tremendous amount of friends that don't do that. But I know a tremendous amount of people that do do that. And the differences, the people that that I hang out with, are totally fine with themselves, that I'm willing to prove they're okay with what they have, or what they don't have their rate pretty well regulated to, you know, but but the people I know that are constantly doing is like, Wow, man, that's all. I couldn't imagine getting up and having to work so hard to tear someone else down. To make yourself gain What what are you gaining? kind of deal?
Rauel LaBreche:
11:36
Are you able to have? Have you had instances where you've had that discussion with a person of that mindset, almost definitely unable to get them to shift
Travis Hilliard:
11:45
at all? You know, I've had a lot of success with kids, okay, you know, to the point where we can talk about this, whether it's a bullying issue, whether it's something else is like, you know, let's let's really talk about this and you do it over a course of time you establish rapport, you can't do it if you don't have a report or relationship with these people, right? Because they don't respect you, you just, you're just another person telling me what you think. Or if you're a cop, telling adult US you're just a cop telling you me what you got to think we're pretty that's that's relationship based importance of this, if you establish relationship, say, hey, you know, what, we're gonna have a chat here, this is what I'm seeing, take for what it's worth. But the fact is, is, maybe we need to change something, you might look at things differently, and it's not gonna bother you that right? You know, and I see that with with our aging population, too, is like, they get so wrapped up over certain things. It's like, you know, when you're younger, Did that bother you? No, I didn't. But let's do this. Let's shut the TV off. Let's turn off that one channel, whatever that channel might be. And let's go outside and just listen to the birds. And really, and sometimes hurt evolve. Yeah, that's for tricky waters, you know? And maybe that's something I encourage everyone to say, hey, you know, maybe change up your day? Yeah, you typically walk this way, walk a different way. Yeah. You know, and I think that's so important for, for people. Yeah. Yeah. Because we are just higher, you know,
Rauel LaBreche:
13:09
when you would hope. I mean, and it's interesting, because, you know, Dr. McAuliffe had been, show with me a number of times, particularly in the midst of the COVID situation, and he talked regularly about the sort of fear of flight, or, you know, the, the fight or flight kind of mechanisms to that, you know, until we can get a move out of the baser part of our brain where we're just reacting to something viscerally, you know, and I'm either going to fight it, or I'm going to run from it, right? And how true that I'm sure, you probably see that over and over again, as a police officer, that people are either really afraid, and they tend to respond one way, or they're really angry, and they turn tend to respond away another way. And the key is to get them up into the other brain, the frontal cortex, where they start thinking about the actions and having those discussions. Is there a is there a magic bullet there for making that getting someone to calm down? I mean, some people just have to put them behind bars overnight, so they get you know, sobered up and can think again, or
Travis Hilliard:
14:18
you balance that out, you balance out the public safety concept, you know, and or what did that person do? Or their, their their conversation, their words, and their body language, you know, there is there is an opportunity to wear, that's the only way they can cool down. And in essence, you know, take take a timeout and set a timeout because on the other end, we need to set up a safety plan for the victim we need we need some time to buy to say hey, what do we need do for you? Is it is it set up some counseling, is it a shelter? Is it you know, rearrange making arrangements with your children, all this kind of stuff? Sure. So at that at that level there is there a system plays that we need to take care of to ensure the safety, you know, from a domestic violence standpoint is there?
Rauel LaBreche:
15:06
What about the people that just don't learn? I mean, when I see things like, you know, seven or eight DUIs, you know. And, you know, there's the part of me that is like, How in the world? Is that person still on the road? Yeah. So and one level, I'm thinking the system is really broken, that that person can still be driving anywhere. And yet, I also understand that well, you know, it's not like you could check for your license every time you get in the car. So perhaps people just think, well, I'll you know, do it and, you know, get away with it, because who's gonna stop me just to see if I have a license? Right? Yeah. But then there's also the part of me that's like, well, what is it that happens in that individual that they just keep doing that same dumb thing, and really dangerous, and really, you know, thoughtless thing, because, you know, you're basically getting into a loaded weapon, if you're drunk, and you're driving. So what's the difference? Or what what do you think happens that people don't learn their lessons, and other people like, right away? They don't want to do something wrong. And they do. Oh, my God, I did you know, you're the kid that I didn't know I couldn't snake fish. I will never do that promise officer, I promise.
Travis Hilliard:
16:18
Exactly. Exactly. Where's the difference? But I think a lot of it is is under having that. That subconscious. You know, what is your subconscious telling you? There is an you know, anytime we're dealing with the alcohol issue, we're dealing with a disease, you know, alcoholism as an alcoholic is a disease or columns and disease. And sometimes they just, they don't have an extended family to intervene, like the kids say, Dad, I'm taking your keys away, your mom taking your keys away, and you're not driving. And a lot of these folks don't have that, that outside source coming in. So you balance out that the brain chemistry of what's what's right and what's not wrong, or vice versa, right. I'm dealing with the disease. And, you know, I've had that conversation, a lot of people's like, how can how can the system be failing? Well, the systems aren't really failing. It's, it's, you know, the system's doing its job. But the question is, what do you do something like that, you know, recidivism, and we're looking at this. And I always, always use the analogy of, you know, if you're a smoker, you're addicted to the chemical and nicotine. And you've had two massive heart attacks and three bypasses, but you continue to smoke. What is that costing? What is that costing? You know, what is it costing a family, the individual health care, all these different things? And all of a sudden, people say, or, what? I never thought of it that way, or, Hey, you know what, I'm a diabetic, but I really love Smarties. And they eat them all day long. And I'm dysregulated and all that kind of stuff. Well, should you be placed in a hospital for the rest of your life? Probably not, we just need to deal with the cause and effect to kind of deal and the underlying condition. And it goes back to the system is only good as a the person involved in the system. You know, stop doing that. I'll stop doing it. That's up to subconscious. But if you're an alcoholic, and you've got 13 bottles of booze stashed around your your residence in your barn, your neighbor's car, I know, I can't drive, I know, I don't have a driver's license, but what's stopping me kind of deal? And it's that and I think that's where that mental health component comes in that at the therapy and in counseling, but there's no money to do that. Yeah, you know, that's a whole nother level. And that counseling aspect is only good as a person involved in it. If it's court ordered, seriously, say court ordered, I gotta clean up this property I'm gonna break up all the leaves fall I don't have to come back. Right. And it's only as good as it can be in and I think it comes down to that's a good question. I don't know that the answer to it, but I understand the dynamics that are involved in trying to fix that
Rauel LaBreche:
18:59
train. Why at the end of the day, you know, I do a lot of training and the training to me always comes down to I can provide the resources for someone to be trained, I can provide the show, you know, yes, training that material and presenting that material but at the end of the day the only person that trains anyone is you Yeah, you know, so when when at the end of the day, I've got to make the decision that I want to take this thing this nugget whatever it is and apply it to my life. And I don't know You know, I don't that's like the quandary of freewill you know why in the Lord did God ever give us free will? Why didn't you just make it so that these are all laws? Follow them. Okay, sir. And away we went. Perfect society, right. No, right away. We had to break the first rule and say, you know, well, but that looks like awfully good. croute I mean, I guess why don't you want me to have that fruit that the fruit looks really good. Yeah. And under sneaking keeps going around and saying, Well, he didn't want to have that fruit because, well, that same thing that's happening today. and you have like those different voices that are going well, you know, getting high right now would be really fun at would you know? And you know, you could go see your friends you know and get together with them it can get high. Yeah would
Travis Hilliard:
20:15
change his heart. When you're changing, you're going in that unfamiliar territory that you're like, I've never been here before. I'm going to resort back to what's normal, what's comfortable and that's that grabbing a bottle. It's it's doing this it's doing that because that's what I've always done.
Rauel LaBreche:
20:28
We tend to make change look boring too, right? Yeah. Is it doing the right thing? It's so boring, right? So
Travis Hilliard:
20:33
boring. Yeah, I'm gonna change I'm gonna change the way I'm thinking. And that's hard.
Rauel LaBreche:
20:38
That's hard. Yeah, it's hard. I don't like the sound of that. No, give me a doobie I'd rather have Yeah,
Travis Hilliard:
20:43
just relax. Just chill. You know.
Rauel LaBreche:
20:48
My guest today is traverse failure. 30 year veteran of the sock police force, but also now doing some private consulting with our school systems and Madison College and just all kinds of thing as in safety and police work and procedural things that are a real benefit. I know you're doing some work with COVID like tracing and whatnot as well. So you've had an opportunity to kind of take all of your 30 years of experience in applied in some new and some same ventures right yep, as a private consultant. But we're gonna take another quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. And we'll be back here to talk some more and kind of talk about the legacy of Travis and some of the systematic things that maybe are even deeper but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back here on 99. Seven Max FM's digital network and frame of reference. It's just nuts to shop anywhere other than Macfarlanes Your one stop True Value Hardware store or in hand tools paint housewares cards and gift wrap small appliances, lawn and garden care grills and grill supplies, automotive repair and maintenance products, plumbing and electrical project supplies, furnace supplies, you get the idea get what you need in Macfarlanes True Value Hardware it's all here under one big 200,000 square foot roof and Macfarlanes in Sauk city one box off of Highway 27 at Carolina Street and we're back here on frame of reference and my guest is Travis fuller 30 year veteran of our very own saw prey police force until recently when he retired went into police, police and protective kinds of consultation work how do I describe it Travis just
Travis Hilliard:
22:23
to see if the safety and security consulting okay you know and with with the caveat with a human being in mind okay, you know, how can we look at people on how can we create a safe environment with with people not the the nuts and bolts of locks and cameras and stuff but
Rauel LaBreche:
22:39
people okay, so really, it's sounds like almost a psychological
Travis Hilliard:
22:43
safety, safety ploy ease and sure knowing who's in your building and understanding what kind of making your
Rauel LaBreche:
22:49
only safety assessments for are you keeping yourself safe, right? Yes. Okay. All of those things. So we were talking when we took a break, we started getting on the one of the big questions that happens regularly, you know, and when you see something like a George Floyd situation, and then shortly thereafter, there was another situation of a female police officer up in Minneapolis and pulling someone over thinking she was getting your Taser actually pulled out her gun shoots and kills, you know, those situations happening with enough regularity. And obviously, with a ton of sensation ality because those things sell papers, and they get people watching and they want to know more. And it gets the fuel, you know, fuels the fires that have been going just rampantly in our culture. And yet, do we use that as a intellectual springboard for see the system is broken? This should not be happening. How can this happen? How was that officer allowed to carry a gun? You know, what's going on here? And that's not the whole story. I mean, you know, I don't know that we the general population ever gets to hear the whole story. Because it's so clouded by what sells, and, and clouded by a pretty bad history. I mean, you know, when you look back at police forces in the South, in particular, back in the 50s, and the 60s, and before that, you know, where you can actually look in pictures and see law officers as part of the posse that hung a black man purse, apparently, you know, whistling at a woman, you see that stuff and realize, well, yeah, that we earned this as a society. How do we get back from that mean? What, from your perspective, what what are the root issues there? How does a dirt Shogun situation happen? Is there. Have you seen things that explain that in a way that maybe would help us to get a different frame of reference? Hmm, there's the title of the show,
Travis Hilliard:
24:54
I think what's what's really important to understand whether it's a direct show in deal or whether it's whether That's any situation in any type of workplace. That was it was an exacerbated example with a derrick Shogun. And I think what's really important is I go back to that the human ality of window of tolerance. Are you regulated? Are you dysregulated. And I don't know anything more than any of us know about the Derek show and deal from watching the trial and watching the news media and so forth. But one thing I really keen on is body language and body behavior. And in I gaze, and everything else, I can only speculate, but he wasn't home, when when that was going on. You know, we have in Wisconsin, we have different things we have to follow from monitoring, debriefing to follow through and making sure, you know, we need medical attention and all these things for the quality of that person's life, you know, and I look at where, whether he was in a process of freezing, that he forgot what he's doing. He wasn't feeling that, that the body underneath him because the scene was secure. And and I think, as, as anything, we talked about the system's broken, I think some people are broken. I think, if we use a terminology of the system is broken. I really like to dissect that and say, the some people in the system break the system kind of deals where the derrick Sean's of the world is, you know, there's something psychologically going on there where he's not home, he's, you know, you got to attend to that person, that person is your full responsibility. At some
Rauel LaBreche:
26:39
point, there should have been a catch a catch for us that says, something's gone wrong here. Yep. Why don't I look at that situation, and just what I what I've seen in psychological terms, because I was a psych major, and I have a tendency to kind of filter through that. And what concern me more than anything, honestly, was not that Yes. What Shogun did was absolutely wrong. I don't understand how he could be on on George plate for eight plus minutes and not have gone. No, I'm done. This was done along. I got, you know, on the guy screaming mama, he's gonna kill you, whatever. How could he be so checked out? But then there were also three other officers there that, you know, allowed that to transpire as well. So you think okay, what is that a training thing? Is that a lack of respect for human life? Is that a, you know, we put him in George Floyd into a category that says he doesn't deserve the sort of, you know, due process or human respect that I would give anyone? And then on the outside, we look at and say, Well, you know, you never see anything about, you know, white cops or black cops killing white people. No, that's not. That's not the issue either. Right? No, no. So how do we keep on the issue of keeping police officers well enough, that they can do their job well enough.
Travis Hilliard:
27:58
And I think it comes down to we have a term within policing on infield Training, we call it discretionary override, to where your supervising officer is going to basically tap you out, you know, tap him on the shoulder all Hey, you know what, why don't you go? See if EMS is on his way, or whatever? Well, we'll change it up. And that gives you an opportunity, because you're breaking up that that thinking process like oh, okay, I got you. Well, in his
Rauel LaBreche:
28:24
case, he was a supervising officer, too. So how do you keep the supervising the top dog base,
Travis Hilliard:
28:30
and that's a change of culture, you got to change that culture, seeing that, hey, I don't care if you've only been on the job, you know, three weeks, and I've been here 30 years, you see something, you say something? And, and that's a culture that, that that has to be done. And I don't know what the culture is that department. But you know, the prior like, Hey, he's, you know, senior guy, he's got this under control. Who am I to say anything different, right? But that's, that's that piece. You know, that's, that's what we need to change.
Rauel LaBreche:
29:04
It sounds like you have to, we have to figure out a way to teach people how to think how to keep you they got
Travis Hilliard:
29:11
to thank you, you got a process. You're dealing with a live human being. Yeah. And you know what, all you're doing is you don't don't forget why you're there. And what's the end result? What is your goal in this whole situation here is to make sure everyone's safe and to get to the bottom of what the call for service was? Sure. And, and I think we lose that sight of like, you know, well, that's let's slow things down. Let's breathe. Let's do some autogenic breathing, some combat breathing and think through this because if we're not breathing, we're not thinking, right.
Rauel LaBreche:
29:46
Yeah, training is really difficult when I think about the times where I've been the most emotionally charged. When I'm, you know, at you know, it's like the Spinal Tap, you know, I'm not at 10 my amp goes to 11 You know, painted on there even in those moments, the amount of training and the commitment to training that's necessary to be able to in those moments, stop and say, breaks on breaks on art, you know, and thank God, there are friends that are there. I mean, you know, to have the the people that in my case, my wife has been great at being able to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, mister, whoa, whoa, whoa. And, you know, initially, I mean, like, it's not fair. You're not seeing my son. Yeah. But she's seeing the right side here. Yeah, she's deregulated and are regulated enough to see that? How do we change the system to allow for that kind of thinking? And that kind of check and balance into what is obviously life and death? Because you could just as easily go the other way and say, you know, no, I'm not going to pull over anyone anymore. Because I don't want to take the risk that this will turn into a racially charged situation, right? So I guess you can go 65 and a 30 mile an hour zone now cuz I don't want to take the chances of stop and have that happen.
Travis Hilliard:
31:07
You know, it's interesting, because I think it starts with one officer at a time. And it it starts interagency as common language, common conversation of hey, this is out there, what can we do and, and being able to recognize that we got to keep our people well, because of our people are not well, and dysregulated, this is going to happen again, history will continue to repeat itself. And I'm, I'm still a big proponent is if you're doing something wrong, you're going to be confronted with it, you're going to be you're going to be dealt with, you're gonna be talked to, but you look at the Comedy nominator when those situations go bad. It's the officer. And that officer is, you know, you're dragging someone out a car. You don't have to, you know, just stop and talk to him. People are going to be ramped up anyway. And we have an expectation of, you know, when you're dealing with a situation, if you're an officer, people are going to be ramped up anyway. No one likes to deal with authority. Nobody likes to be told they're doing something wrong. Nobody likes to be told that their registration is expired, because they're all, you know, recreating on a weekend. But the fact is, is if we can really solidify that thought process with the officer saying, Hey, are you okay? Hey, you know what, you're gonna run into these different things and foreshadow some of this stuff is that if you if you don't want to go to this call, you know, call the other beat officer have them handle you be the backup officer. But keep in mind is that you need to be okay. And it's okay not to be okay.
Rauel LaBreche:
32:38
And that seems to me, almost impossible. Say, because when you're in a sock very cheap. Strunk has been on the show before and he's talked about, we see everything in sock braid that you'll see in any big town, just not as often. So, and I've thought about that, so yeah, so there is no real crime differential in terms of the kinds of criminal activity you see, what is different is the rate at which you see it correct. The amount of decompression time that you have in between each of the those really heinous things. Yeah. So I think of that in terms of how long could we expect any person regardless of their, you know, Constitucion, or their makeup going into it? It seems to me that we should almost have, you know, police officers or police forces where you can serve two years, and then you're off for two years, and then you can serve another and then you're off for two years. I mean, I don't know how you'd build that system. But it almost seems like it's impossible. I don't know how you would continue to be regulated when you're a Milwaukee Police officer or a Chicago police officer, Minneapolis, Mino la those big cities, even when you have 1000s of people on the force alongside you, it's got to be just a huge it's like being in battle, you know,
Travis Hilliard:
33:59
it is because you know, you might might be in that city, you might be running 234567 Gunshot calls or 18 domestics on a shift because you're your beat population is 25,000 people, right? Or your beat population might be 80,000 people in a big city and so you have to take all those factors in consideration sure to where and you know, in Sauk Prairie you know our call volumes this and you might have whatever call like you said six in a winner Yeah. And it's just like that Austria has, you know, 72 hours or more between calls it's like ruin I'm fine. But I think a lot of it comes down to is opening the door up to have that conversation on mental health. And I think that mental health making sure that we're okay is huge without the ramifications of hey, you know what, you're talking yourself out of a job. Like, like made the comment about the rubber gun squad. That that's that's alive and Well, you know, there is a majority of officers aren't going to go say, Hey, boss, I'm not feeling good today. What what's the problem? Well, you know, maybe you need Psych Services, because then we go from zero to 60, saying, hey, you know, you just kind of dysregulated today, maybe you need this to like, man, you're not fit to do the job. Right? And that,
Rauel LaBreche:
35:19
shouldn't it be a good sign? If an officer says, Yeah, I need to get some help i but I'm in a bad place right now. Yeah, I would think as a superior officer, you want to Hey, thank God, thank you for letting me know that. That's great. Let's get you some help. Instead of Oh, and you know, there's that whole Well, he's carrying a gun, I can't afford to let him be a human being.
Travis Hilliard:
35:39
Right. Right. Right. Right. And that's a lot of it, too, is as Whoa, I don't know, I don't know. And in that is, you know, we're, our thought process is like, hey, that happened once in war ever, where a young kid went, went off, and he, you know, shot a bunch of people that rifle and that happened. But it's like, that was one incident, out of how many minutes of the day, how many years? And you know, this kind of stuff is like, versus how good is that officer when they're going through their divorce. They're not Coholic, but they may square it around at work, you know, kind of doing whatever, but it's like, and they've got three citizens complaints on be, you know, the way they treated someone or the way they talked to somebody or, or even company, you know, that's that Balanced test. What what is that? And I just comes down to, what are you willing to challenge? What do you what are you willing to say, hey, you know, what, our people are important. And we are going to keep the door wide open and be transparent. Say, you are all having a bad day. Let's get you hooked up. Because the more we know about ourselves, the better we're going to be right? And it's kind of like I always tell tell parents, this is if you know, you're if I was your kid, and every time I did something wrong, I was going to, you know, go to my room locked in three squares a day, holy hell, guess what? I'm not telling you anything anymore. Right. You know, in I don't know if that's a nationwide thing. But yet, would that open up some of the mental health because right now, law enforcement, they have a high high suicide rate? Yeah. You know, I've had 1233 of my friends killed themselves. And that's just with within proximity. Sure. Suicide didn't, you know, one had some different things going on. But it's like, wow, you know, and it doesn't happen
Rauel LaBreche:
37:33
again. We're Yeah, how, how big a problem is that? Oh, across the nation, across the world, really?
Travis Hilliard:
37:39
Across the world. And, and that happens a lot of different professions. But it doesn't have to be that way.
Rauel LaBreche:
37:43
So is there room? Is there room in our culture the way it is right now? For a cop with problems? A cop that struggling? Is there? Is that acceptable? Do you think are what am I getting at the it's almost like the idea of a police officer with mental stress and mental problems, I think is terrifying to some people. Because, you know, it's just, they can't they have to be together, they have to be like the pilot, flying the plane, and the engine has just fallen off. And they can get on the radio and say, Well, man, we appear to be having a little problem with our jet, but we're gonna proceed to the nearest airport and do the best job not kidding you all. So but, I mean, that's just not realistic. It is not realistic. And I know I don't get at what point will we wake up smell the coffee and say, you know, what communities I think I think that maybe is one of the strengths of Sauk Prairie. I shouldn't say it's good people want to move here now. But one of the strengths of this community is that I think, I think we do a pretty good job taking care of our police for you. Yeah, as a community as educated, you know, and, and I, I struggled that I don't think in larger metropolitan areas that that people even know how to do that. Right. And then there is such an awesome them mentality and culture that's been fed, nurtured for years and years and years and years, that they're not even sure how to begin doing it. If they see the importance of doing it. So how do we get people there?
Travis Hilliard:
39:26
I think a lot of it too, is is timing. You know, right now, recruitment numbers are low. overtimes going through the ceiling with with agencies are crossed everywhere because there's no nobody's to work. And I see that it's going to be it's gonna be a bigger deal. You know, whether you disengage from traffic stops, whether you do this or just not get involved or, or whatever, you know, your calls for service. That's, that's going to be an increasing I don't see it going away soon. Because our numbers are so low and you know, you're a warm body hit the beat, and that makes you more stressed Jim makes more stress, right? Because all of a sudden, you're working back to back shifts. And yeah, there's policy on how many hours you can work within a 24 hour period, yada, yada, yada. But knowing that you don't have a break, right? Well, how do you go to sleep after some shifts that a police officer has to do I mean, I, the whether you're regulating or not just to get that brain pattern out, so you can relax? I mean, why do police officer become alcoholics? Well, sometimes it's survive exam, right? Yep, yep. And then you deal with the internal politics, internal stuff is where, you know, when sometimes you got into the public, it's a break, because internal strife is, is sometimes more powerful than what you're dealing with. So the factions within the actual force itself are. And that's, that's, that's what a lot of people don't see is the internal strife. You know, of who's who and who's getting this promotion. And, you know, I screwed this report up the DS office calling man I'm under the gun here. And this can't ever, you know, all these different things that people don't see, because you want to create a smooth operation. Sure, in the public light, but internally, it's like a family, you know, you have the perfect family on the outside. But once you close that door, it's like, oh, man, this is we got to do some things. And that's that balance point to
Rauel LaBreche:
41:18
is there, you brought up an interesting point that I think of unlike a lot of police procedurals, where the police officer works really hard to get a guy and then finds out that they violated some statute or didn't follow a procedure Exactly. And the Da da has to throw the thing out, you know, just they can't prosecute them. And they just like, the DA aboute should be an ally, the DEA office becomes kind of like, you know, those guys, they're gonna, you know, they look let the guy walk, and then, you know, get all the vendetta going to I'm really gonna get this guy next dive, right, and I'm not gonna have any way to, you know, kind of,
Travis Hilliard:
41:53
you know, and that's, that's comical, because as you move through that the sliding scale of the career is kind of like, you know, used to get all taken personal. It's like, that was a good case. You know, I had all this all this and all the DS officers. Oh, no, no. And it is what it is, you know, you're you only have so much you can do, you know, sometimes you got to wrap wrap the president newspaper, sometimes you got to give him a cardboard box, because I don't have anything else. And you know, this is what I do have, sometimes it comes with a nice bow on it. You know, but but the fact is, is you don't take it personal. It's like, I did what I did my part. And now the system is going to take over and if someone skates on something, because the witness statement recanted, or the person said, Hey, I not really sure now it's trial time, if I want to get involved, you know, it is what it is. But at that point in time, you can really slow things down and do the best job, you can just like any workforce, any workplace that be expected. But don't take it personal. How, you know, there'll be more, how
Rauel LaBreche:
42:53
hard is the regret factor, a man would think, you see the consequences of a bad decision can be pretty brutal. Sometimes, you know, and you do have at the end of the day, you have to make a call, you have to make a you know, discernment of the officer is really, you know, key to the whole thing. What about in the circumstances where you you thought you made a good call, it ends up being a bad call in terms of the consequences for either foreseen or unforeseen things that occurred? How does a police officer deal with that? Because there's got to be a sense of Sheesh, I?
Travis Hilliard:
43:31
Well, you know, we, I always say there's, we need law enforcement take calculated risks, calculated risks, knowing all the factors we have in place, knowing what policy is saying, know what, you know, we're consulting with A, B, and C. And we're, we're putting everything we have into this decision making process, the input machine, and the output machine is saying we should do A, B, and C. And we're doing human people. We're doing people thinking walking in, and things don't always work that way. But but always stay, you know, if you did everything, right, if if you process it well, you made your phone calls, and you work through this, and you talk to people outside your circle, meaning, you know, it's kind of like, digress a little bit. NASA blew up to space shuttles, okay, because of an engineering flaw, that they don't look outside of their core group of engineers, where you have a new engineer coming say, well, there's the problem. Right? And they didn't
Rauel LaBreche:
44:38
they didn't heed the people are trying to tell them what the problem was when they wouldn't listen. Yeah.
Travis Hilliard:
44:42
And I think so much in our profession is, the more in a profession, the more we do with likeness mentality, the more errors we're going to create. You have to get outside that like this mentality and have a critic or someone to say, I don't think that's a good idea. And this is why based on In fact, and I shut them down for that, and I'm down for that. So I think if we've done all that role, and we look at the regret, and I always tell people I said, don't regret anything. Because regrets a feeling it's an emotion. And it said, once you start feeling that emotion, it's going to take a long time, because you're gonna wire your brain to feeling like, I'm second guessing myself, I'm not adequate. And you got to move beyond that. But if you do it right, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, we're doing human people, we're dealing with different SWAT calls, we're dealing with this kind of stuff gun calls, kids, as long as you create a safe environment, made the right decisions, factual based, you know, you consulted with people outside of your, your likeness, group mentality of things. So best assuming can calculated risk,
Rauel LaBreche:
45:50
you're trying to at least take as many of the variables yes equation so that you have the best potential for rolling a seven. Yeah,
Travis Hilliard:
45:57
and if you can't get family on board, right, you know, if it's a mental health thing, get family on board? Sure. Say, here's what we're thinking, what do we have?
Rauel LaBreche:
46:04
So I this just kind of popped in? Because I keep thinking of? Was it Fargo? I think the show and the one series they did were Billy Bob Thornton is like the bad guy. And I don't think you've seen that particular one. But Billy Bob Thornton is just the epitome of the evil guy. I mean, he's just bad, bad to the bone in you. Do you see that? I mean, I would think, as a police officer, you maybe come II, with the people that are just so far down the dark end of the tunnel, that I don't know what it would take to get them back. And if you can, and, and it does, those kinds of people kind of give me the heebie jeebies, honestly, because they're so dark and the show, amoral, and you know, just have this attitude of nothing applies to him. And
Travis Hilliard:
46:55
I think it's a good point, you know, like Gavin de Becker, his book, The gift of fear, is a must read for anyone who thinks like, you know, is afraid of this, because it talks about intuition. And it talks about not everyone is a good person. You know, they're good people, bad things happen to good people. But, you know, bad things happen to bad people too. And, you know, that's, that comes back to defunding the police. There's some really bad people out there, you know, our prisons are full of them, to where, you know, they've they've created some cause some some heinous crimes. And that's where basically, understanding and knowing what you're going into, and being humbled, you know, if you're Superman going situation, you get hurt, because that person might have the skill set well beyond what the rules you're engaging in, because these bad people don't have any rules. As cops, we have rules, right? We have rules, we have policy, we have statutes and use of force, and these people are playing by our rules. Right. You know, and so that that goes back to that other question to undergrad is, when we're dealing with use of force, we're following standards, we're following standards that are applicable to us that are that are court tested, in approved, you know, to where the individual dealing with has no standards. You know, it's that fight or flight? Sure head, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do whatever I have to get away from the cops and then
Rauel LaBreche:
48:19
has to be almost, I would think that puts you at an inherent disadvantage, to be playing a rulebook that doesn't apply to the person you're playing against. I mean, to me, that is like a recipe for disaster, and maybe is part of the reason why things get broken, where, you know, African Americans with cell phones get shot because they the police officer interpreted as a gun. And yeah, didn't ask a lot of questions, because they're used to playing with people that don't play by the rules,
Travis Hilliard:
48:50
right? The rulebook is nonspecific. Yeah, not specific to gender, race or anything. It's it's a rulebook in order to keep people safe, in essence, you know, and, you know, let's look at the majority, not the derrick shovin thing, because that's a bad deal. And I think we all know where that that ended in on where it began. But the thing is, in general, you know, those those rules are out there to keep people safe. It's about public safety. It's about the the loss of life, it's about getting that individual who might be suicidal, ready to jump off the bridge or arm or the gunner, or whatever barricade in their house, to get them help, or to help resolve the problem. And that's ultimately, the goal. When you go home at the end of the day is, you know, what did we do well, today, we got so and so some help, you know, we had to kick their door in but yet we got them to where they needed to be and you know what, they're getting some medical attention, right, right now,
Rauel LaBreche:
49:47
forward, at least move it forward. So look at your career, 30 years in the force. Now, what's beyond I know you're a ways away from this yet, but is there a is there a legacy that you'd like to use? Leave behind that you would like, years from now, when people you know, when you really are graduating to the next level, whatever that is, is there something that you'd like people to remember you by or some some standard that you want to try to embody some leader that you want to be associated with? Or some, you know, some something that sort of is the quintessential, I hope when people think of me they think of this. Yeah. And yeah, you know, I
Travis Hilliard:
50:27
think if, if anything in this even goes back to my childhood to is, no matter what, whoever has interaction with me, you know, what, if I have interaction with them, I just want them to feel like they're treated well, no matter what, you know, and I don't want to legacy, but no matter who I have contact with, they're the most important thing that's going on is this conversation. And maybe they'll appreciate that to the next person, you know, who they kind of blue offer, spend some time with? Sure. kind of deal. And, and I think, I think that's the most important thing is, you know, not so much a legacy. But hey, you want to talk? Let's chat? Yeah. And, you know, and I think two is understanding me as an individual, you know, off outside the uniform. Sure. Not everyone, everyone recognize me in the uniform, but the fact is, is, you know, what, I sometimes lost who I was in that uniform, because, you know, this, this pedestal thing, and right. And like I said before, is fine, don't work on everyday changing who I was today than I was yesterday. You know, I'm stagnant and doing something different and moving forward, and re engaging in conversations that I just never had time for. Right? You know, and I think the the most important is, no matter who they are, no matter what people in us need to treat people with respect, non judgement, not acceptance, you know, right, and, and just focus on themselves
Rauel LaBreche:
52:03
and be vulnerable. And yeah, you're the only product you really have complete control over. You're the only one Yeah, I am. My thoughts, my feelings. My Yep. And, you know, and that's, that's what I think is important. Sure, for everybody. Sure. So hopefully, you will pass it on to your younger children and like, right, so that I keep thinking of this thing that I put up on my wall a while back by George Thompson, who was a police officer wrote a book called The Verbal Judo. And it was principles that he came across as a police officer, and just saw the really experienced officers were practicing that the tenants here, and as a result of that, they were extremely successful police officers, and he wanted to figure that out and get that into his psyche. And the first thing in the rulebook is, all people want to be treated with dignity and respect. And that that that makes the difference, I think between the stop that turns you into gang police officer, we've got nothing better to do than pull over law abiding citizens going a mere five miles over the, I mean, there's that whole thing versus the Hey, Lou, what's going on, man? You're going like 50 and a 35. Dude, what? What's happening? Where's the fire? You know,
Travis Hilliard:
53:18
the brakes a couple of times, you know,
Rauel LaBreche:
53:20
I mean, come on, you know, a guy just had a big fight with Maryland. Man, Lou, really? What the heck was it about this time, right. I mean, in Mayberry, they had plenty of time for that in Chicago, not so much. But the principle of dignity and respect that says, hey, you know what, I don't know what you've been going through. You don't know what I've been going through. Let's talk, you know, hopefully, that part of the system can get fixed right. And I suspect your work will do some fixing of it in our small area. I can't tell you how thankful I am that you didn't retire to move out of Sauk Prairie and go back where the crappie fishing is better than ever. So but you stayed in Ira Travis because I know the community will benefit richly from being around. can't thank you enough for being on the show. I know we still had like tons of stuff we could talk about. But we'll look at a couple months down the road when you when you bend into the school year for a while or whatever. And we can continue the conversation. That is okay, we the perfect that sounds broken. My guest has been Travis Hillier. 30 year veteran Lieutenant for the Sauk Prairie police force for all a bunch of that time, is now doing some private consulting work on public safety and just ways to keep communities safe. Whether that be a school district or an organization, so he's available I can put with the notes for this court waste waste to get ahold attract us. If you're interested in having him come to your organization. I'm sure he'd be happy to help in any way you can. Travis, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We'll take a quick break. I'll be back with closing comments here in the frame of reference and 99.7 Max FM's digital Network
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Rauel LaBreche:
55:33
When I was a kid, my mom and I watched a lot of police shows together, drag that Adam 12 car 54 Where are you? I remember early on seeing the police cars in those shows. And in particular, the Los Angeles Police logo with the model to protect and to serve written clearly on it. I remember thinking even at that age, wow. Police have a really hard job. Because those are two very different mindsets. One is based in power over others and the other surrendering to the needs of others. Well, they're not easily cultivated in the same human being in on to this day, I always seem to feel a little awkward around police a little bit scared. And like I better just watch out and fly right around them. There's just always a bit of tension. Like, I can't really let my guard down for fear of saying something stupid or making a bad analogy or seeing something suspicious. But why am I worried about that? That's, that's really the thing that needs to change in our frame of reference. I think we all have to work to find the space for police officers to be humans first, and officers second, they're charged with enforcing the law. But after all the rules and laws are memorized. The final proof in the pudding is the quality of the person behind the badge, their personal melding of the power of protection and the surrender of self inherent in service. We need to think about our responsibility to protect and serve them too. Don't forget, if you have any suggestions or questions you can contact us at www.forsauk.com. Stay well
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