Just so you know . . . When Paul and I recorded this interview in Mid-November we had too much fun and ended up with 3 parts, but I realized later that the 3rd part had some more time sensitive info for our "local" listeners, so I decided to air it first. Consequently there's no "Favorite Things" opener for this episode. But HAVE NO FEAR, next week's show will have a favorite things portion.
Years ago I met Paul Wolter when we started a tradition of doing a radio interview around Christmas time in order to talk about an annual event at the Sauk County Historical Society. Each year the Van Orden Mansion, a local landmark, is decorated with all sorts of Christmas trees in a beautiful tribute to the holiday season. So this year, given my new podcast format, we decided it would be a good time to talk even more about the History of Sauk County with regards to Christmas traditions and so much more. We also again talked about the old Railroad Depot in Baraboo, which is being restored to it's original splendor by the Historical society, as well as the importance of getting history right. We also talked a lot about the importance of history and how we determine that something or some event has historical significance. We set the record straight on all of that.
Paul Wolter is a native of Reedsburg in Sauk County and now lives in Baraboo with his wife Anne. He holds an undergraduate degree in Fine Art from the UW- Madison. Paul is the Executive Director of the Sauk County Historical Society but has been with the organization since 1996 serving as president from 2000 until 2015. His hobbies are genealogy, cycling and travel
Announcer: 0:04
Welcome to frame of reference informed intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world, in depth interviews with salt counties, leaders and professionals to help you expand in and form your frame of reference, brought to you by the max FM digital network. Now, here's your host Rauel LaBreche.
Rauel LaBreche:
0:26
Welcome back to frame of reference here where we get to talk about all things Sacani related. And then so so my guest today, Paul Walter, who is the Executive Director of Suffolk County Historical Society, he specifically is concerned about Sauk County, but there's a lot of things that happen in Sauk County that are just kind of the litmus test or the the experience of people all over the place and the challenges that you face. Right. And, and one of those projects right now is the railroad depot. We've been kind of talking tangentially about it. Yeah. Why do railroad depots matter? Why is it something that, you know, we really mean, I know, it's hard to imagine now that railroads were as significant in just getting people from place to place Yeah, and how they were the coolest technology of their day, in one way. But you know, now we're looking at when Star Trek transport happening because I don't want to spend all this time getting someplace I want to be right or
Paul Volter:
1:17
the driverless car, so I can read instead of have to bring attention to the road, right? Yeah, I don't know, depots, they have this unique place, you know, if you had a railroad in your, in your village or city, you had a depot, you know, it was this, this connection point between, you know, the city and the wider world through the through the venue of the railroad. So there are somewhat unique architecture, you know, everybody when I say depot, they often have a picture of a cute little one story, wooden or brick depot, you know, waiting rooms, baggage laying around, often seen on the movies and things like that. In barebow, however, since we were chosen to be a division headquarters for Chicago, Northwestern railroad, when it came in 1871. They had more than one building, originally a depot and office building a hotel and lunch room. And then by the turn of the 20th century, our tiny little depot, which was tiny, just an embarrassment really had no canopy. So you're either standing out in the rain or elements or whatever. But that by the turn of the 20th century, there was this vast desire to have a modern building. And Chicago Northwestern came through with combining all of those buildings offices, the depot, the lunch room, into one gigantic building with with. So we would have had a one storey building, except for the division offices, which were all upstairs. So it's 166 feet long. 40 some feet wide at the widest part, you know, two storeys above a partial basement. So some people that don't, you know, they hear about the depot project, and they're like, depot, what do you do? There was a depot, let alone an old one. Right. And a beer depot. Gotcha. That building, you know, they know, they've all seen it, you know, but they just don't realize what exactly it was. So
Rauel LaBreche:
3:21
when we have such a, I think as even as a country, we have a different idea of trains. I mean, you think of Europe, and there'd be no problem whatsoever selling this in Europe. I mean, people would be probably falling over each other to donate money to restore, because they have so many historic depot's that are significant in so many ways,
Paul Volter:
3:40
and many of them are still in use. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I
Rauel LaBreche:
3:42
mean, and that's the thing, they've never lost sight of the importance of a railroad. And, you know, mass transit is still in many applications. It's the best route to go really. And we have seems like we haven't ever really figured that out. Because even when we tried to do like, shortline transport between Milwaukee and Madison, it just always Yeah,
Paul Volter:
4:01
it's like going to Madison, and you're dumped off on West Eastwatch. West wash, you know, where do you? Where do you go from there? Right. You know, whereas in Europe, you know, you get to a bigger city, I suppose this things are a little more. There's other forms of mass transit within, you know, a city to get to get to the next point, you know,
Rauel LaBreche:
4:23
well, you should do that with Milwaukee Greyhound would drop off at the station. Yeah, the railroad station Amtrak. I think they're doing that again now, cuz I actually had to consolidate some things to save money and realize that, hey, we could both do this. And part
Paul Volter:
4:37
of is just our vast size. You know, I mean, Germany is the size of maybe Wisconsin and Minnesota with 10 times the population. So if that happened here, yeah, there'd be a lot more mass transit. You know, but Well, Tracy
Rauel LaBreche:
4:51
has such a wonderful way to travel. I've only been on a train a couple times in my life, but I mean, you talk about the driverless car. Well, you know, train is much the driverless car right? So you can't get up walk around, you know, go to the observation deck for a while. I mean, it's the dining car there's so many cool things
Paul Volter:
5:08
so And the converse side I think here in America because that's not as prevalent and because of movies like white Christmas, you know, and things like that there is more of this nostalgia about trains and whatnot. So that hopefully will, will parlay to our favor and saving places like the old barebow depot where you have a train set Shut up somewhere yeah, actually, we want to get an H O scale model of the depot when it was in its prime 300 foot canopy the whole nine yards, which which in itself at H O scale will be almost will be over three feet long. Okay. So if you know your H O buildings, that's enormous. Yeah. So we want to we do want to commission a H O scale model for fundraising purposes, put it at various places that people can catch the vision, but then it will be plunked down into the middle of an H O scale layout of the bearable yards that 28 stall roundhouse, I was talking about all of the the Ringling car shed will be just a few feet away. Sure. You know, there was multi, there's probably 16 tracks in the bearable yards, you know, so
Rauel LaBreche:
6:15
yeah, that'll be fun. Yeah, I know. One of the coolest exhibits I remember seeing at Chicago. It was the Field Museum was no the
Paul Volter:
6:25
Museum of Science in India. Yeah, they have that old
Rauel LaBreche:
6:27
and whole set. Yeah. And it just brought me back to being a kid and I love train sets when I was a kid ever
Paul Volter:
6:33
get to Hamburg, Germany, the world's largest. I think it's H O scale. Layout is there. Okay. And it's it's indescribable. In describe multiple floors.
Rauel LaBreche:
6:44
What is it? The gees is a G scale that you can ride on? What are the I don't know, there's a scale for that, that you know, the ones that people will have in like garden. Right, right. That's a sign that you're making good amount of money when you have a railroad in your garden, right? Yes, I go out and work on the tulips today. Whoo.
Paul Volter:
7:03
Yeah. That'd be nice. So leaves.
Rauel LaBreche:
7:06
What about other target? holidays are coming up. That's always a fun time at the Norton mansion. Right? What?
Paul Volter:
7:12
Yeah, yeah, we'll be doing that again. Christmas at the mansion, December 10 11th and 12th. Our theme this year is a mid century Christmas. So anything from 1945 to 1965. And that can be a movie a board game, a TV show. So we've got a 50s kitchen a 50s. Cocktail Party in the front parlor, 50s diner upstairs. And also Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. The Lord of the Rings will be an entire room that was that came out and that was published in the 50s. You're talking Suzy snowflake Mickey Mouse Club. It's a Wonderful Life. Candyland. The board game came out in 1949. So
Rauel LaBreche:
7:54
it's Narnia in there too, and are no no, it was kind of up to
Paul Volter:
7:57
our designers, what they chose, the Lord of the Rings will be as close as you'll get.
Rauel LaBreche:
8:01
Wow, he and Tolkien and Lewis and Tolkien were good friends. Yeah,
Paul Volter:
8:03
I guess. So two options, 1/10 and 12th will be self guided small group tours by reservation, kind of like last year. So if you're more comfortable in a in a smaller setting, you can enjoy the it's in it's nice to be there with without a crowd. Sometimes I can take your own pace. And those are from two to six and then December 11. Oh, we are bringing back the jingle bells open house was here from 12 to seven. Trying to provide live music for both experiences. There'll be bagged holiday treats to take home so easing our way back into normalcy but so I can find out everything all as always at our websites County History dot orgy we also have a new gift shop there. So you can check out some some swag as they call it. Now I think some interesting one of a kind items, if you've got that person, you never know what to get. For them, you can get them a cup or a hat or some other items. So
Rauel LaBreche:
9:04
now COVID has been hard. I think artists and organizations like your own mean so much of the the activities that you would do, or the things that fundraising events or whatnot. Were people oriented mean, you
Paul Volter:
9:18
had a tour of homes who wants 400 people in their house. Right?
Rauel LaBreche:
9:23
Right. Not a good idea. Right? Yeah. So so.
Paul Volter:
9:27
Yeah, so we've had to adjust a lot more online. Some of it will some of it was good, because we will have always had our presentations recorded online but doing them on YouTube now and more of a live format has allowed hundreds, hundreds more people to
Rauel LaBreche:
9:45
understand one thing there were some things that you really were surprised by the number of people that attend
Paul Volter:
9:49
Yeah, especially the online presentations. So we'll be doing them eventually both in person and and online. For that next year. But yeah, I would say, some things have been good. Some things have been hard, but sure, right, like, as I've been saying, for the past year and a half, I like pedaling history more than I like living through it. But such as life?
Rauel LaBreche:
10:14
Well, that's, you know, when, if you were to write the history of these years, you know, is there what do you think will be the important history lessons that we learned the things that will help to keep us from not repeating this again? Well, and
Paul Volter:
10:32
you'd like to think so. I can look back in the 1918 papers, I mean, the Spanish, so called Spanish flu pandemic, and you know, you see some of the same thing as anti masking leagues and things like that, of course, they didn't know about vaccinations back then. Or they would have been added on top of it, too. But it's it's it's kind of ironic to look back at pictures and, and whatnot and see the same the same kind of things. Well, the
Rauel LaBreche:
10:59
commerce issues, I was astounded, what is it Philadelphia, where they were scheduled to have a huge war bond, parade, and
Paul Volter:
11:08
I went through this parade, and they had this huge spike and in cases and deaths,
Rauel LaBreche:
11:13
while there, there was the side of saying, we have to cancel, you have to cancel. And then there were all the other people saying, we can't possibly cancel this, it will be the death of our, you know, funding drive, what kind of thing? So same forces were at work then. Right.
Paul Volter:
11:28
And yet today, we have so much more media, and you know, social media outlets, so everybody has a voice back then it was like if you didn't own the newspaper, right, you know, right. It's at the same time, you're, you're more isolated and probably, you know, insulated from not knowing everything that's going on everywhere at every time.
Rauel LaBreche:
11:46
And it doesn't make you wonder, though, to have the history of the future will be I think corrupted. That's the word I think of corrupted by the fact that everyone has an opinion, but not everyone has factual information. And it's like, we're losing the ability to differentiate.
Paul Volter:
12:04
Yeah, yeah. Even even with photos, you know, photo shopping and, and things like that just right become so good. You're like what's really wildly the truth?
Rauel LaBreche:
12:14
I saw a picture that that I have seen before of, on a site called Quora and they have these questions from different people. And one was, you know, how is it that you know, NASA was able to land Neil Armstrong on the moon and the earth was in the right, that doesn't make any sense. And the writer had to show well, the official NASA picture, and he showed the official net that was taken. He said, There is no earth in that shot. And NASA never really used that shot. And if you look at the one, you can see the Photoshop line where they extended the band put the earth in there. You know, what that but that's going to be the way a lot of things will be where we'll, you know, show while you were here at this time, and when I was never there.
Paul Volter:
12:56
Yeah, it's sorry. And troubling and whatever. But I you know,
Rauel LaBreche:
13:02
is there a litmus test that we should be able to apply to, to events to me, it strikes me that you have to kind of know the context of the time to know that that just doesn't sound right.
Paul Volter:
13:15
Right. Well, even looking back in Saccone history, and I revere Mr. Canfield, but there are a few points in reading his writings that I'm looking at other firsthand sources, and I'm like, where did you come up with this, or this doesn't quite, quite jive with what I'm seeing in other friends. But again, he's writing from his perspective and his bias, his point of view, you know, so the further we get down the road, the more you have the ability to look at, we were an amazing point in history now where there's so many online sources, drill that you can piece together. So you do have that ability to use multiple sources, and the closer to the this firsthand, the better. So as as time goes on, and but it does get overwhelming because now we have millions of pages or millions of websites, or whatever hours of video or millions of pictures. So it's almost, it almost becomes, you know, well, differentiating
Rauel LaBreche:
14:15
between opinion and actual fact is the, you know, I think of that being kind of the the Achilles heel of historians is, you know, at what point how do you separate your objective reality, you know, depiction and, you know, trying to articulate that, from your subjective opinion of what really happened, because you and I can see to well, heck the Gospels are, I think, a great example of that people say, well, there are these inconsistencies and whatnot. And the, the best explanation I've heard is, well, you're basically seeing four sides of the same building, you know, and depending on which side of the burning building you are on, you're going to see different things.
Paul Volter:
14:54
The building was still on fire and red events still happened. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it'll take a little We'll take some nuance and in some, yeah,
Rauel LaBreche:
15:03
and the reality, don't you feel it? Sometimes you have to sort of stop and say, well, we'll never really know. We'll wait because it was four months. I'm
Paul Volter:
15:11
kind of glad to deal with everything for maybe, you know, World War Two back then our modern crazy world, I'll let somebody else at the future.
Rauel LaBreche:
15:22
Well, and even then, they didn't have all the technology to argue with, you know what they saw happen. And yet people were still making up stories about Britain. You know what? Charles Ringling riding up on a horse? Right? Yeah.
Paul Volter:
15:35
Well, there was that nugget of truth. Yeah. So yeah, exactly. It's kind of a similar thing. But until you can find that firsthand.
Rauel LaBreche:
15:41
Yeah. Count, the story just isn't big enough, we can make it better.
Paul Volter:
15:45
Well, and of course, then you're dealing with the circus, and the rings. Were called the Sunday School circus, but yet they were masters of hyperbole and showmanship. And
Rauel LaBreche:
15:55
sure, you know, when there were strong feelings about circuses, too, right? I mean, you were either you know very much the circus is wonderful, or the circus is smelly, and I don't trust those animals. And you're weird
Paul Volter:
16:05
pockets and yeah, and whatnot. And yeah, the rings had a lot to do with changing the perception of the American circus and making sure they were called the Sunday School show for for good reason. So
Rauel LaBreche:
16:15
Sunday School show.
Paul Volter:
16:19
Just one last story, they got so powerful that they could contact the sheriff or the authorities and then in the next place, they were going and tell them to lock up the usuals for that day, you know, and they would, they'd come up with some reason to lock up the typical Grifters and drifters and whatnot, and make sure they weren't going to pose a problem. Wow. Yeah.
Rauel LaBreche:
16:41
Well, that's that those are precedents that are still being followed today. I'm sure there are folks that just yeah, get rid of those protesters. They're gonna they're gonna interfere with our photo op today. Right. So no one
Paul Volter:
16:52
today it's more like well pay protesters to be in a photo ops, right. You think? Yeah, right.
Rauel LaBreche:
16:59
So you that you make people agree without what I think is the right thing to do. Yeah. But you have to you do have to wonder sometimes, right? Is that what happened? Or is that just somebody's opinion of what was important about that? Well, Paul, again, can't thank you enough. My guest today has been Paul Walter, the executive director of the Suffolk County Historical Society and center. Don't forget those Christmas events coming up. And if you're listening to this, after that has all happened, then put it on your calendar for next week, next year, because it's always the second weekend of December. But yeah, the second second weekend and things okay, if you're visiting Sauk County, hopefully you maybe can even stop and and see the progress going on at the railroad depot. And if you're before you go, I suggest you watch White Christmas and a couple of other movies that have significant scenes and railroad people so you understand why they are important, and what they say about who we are. So thanks, Paul. Appreciate it. We'll be right back with closing comments here on frame of reference, and the 97 max FM's digital network
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18:00
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Rauel LaBreche:
18:31
A lot of younger kids that I know say that history is boring. To them. It's all about memorizing stupid dates and events, their words, not mine. This saddens me to think that history is reduced to this in so many classrooms and curriculums, and most importantly, in so many minds, because history is so much more. Our word for history even underscores the fact that history is an action, not a subject. The Greek word at its root Historia translates as an inquiry or knowledge acquired by investigation. So if taught with these ideas in mind, students of history are shown how to be investigators. People that turn over rocks, look behind fences, see between the lines and figure out the true story of just what did happen back then, in that place with those people. And why fill in the blanks in any story with actual facts in you've got the makings of a rich tapestry. That is nothing more or less than the story of us. So whether it's train stations or Christmas traditions, world events or community gatherings, there's a story there waiting to be told And maybe, just maybe it will change the frame of reference through which you view the past. Happy hunting. And thanks for joining us.
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