Lady Justice's Blindfold: Uncovering Bias in the Court System

Show Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Testing one, two. Yeah, that's working, and this recording has started. So we're good there And here we go, ready.

Speaker 2:

 0:09

All right.

Speaker 1:

 0:10

Let's have it. Do that again, because I think I was talking over you.

Speaker 2:

 0:15

Let's have it.

Speaker 1:

 0:16

Oh, let's have what my friend Antoine, what's have what I know, let's have an episode of coming together. Shall we frame of reference. Coming together, absolutely. I folks, i'm raw, i'm raw, the brush, and a guy sitting across from me in the screen up in like Green Bay or something, aren't you? I mean, you're a ways away, Green Bay, Wisconsin.

Speaker 2:

 0:37

Antoine Hallman senior.

Speaker 1:

 0:39

Isn't that a great thing, to that we can be. Here I am in little old sock prairie, wisconsin, and there you are in little old Green Bay, wisconsin, and we can have a face to face these days, you know yeah, i know it's amazing how the technical technology advances have happened even in the last 10, 15 years.

Speaker 2:

 0:56

My goodness man.

Speaker 1:

 0:57

Yeah, yeah, in the IT industry, i know when COVID hit the, they say the IT infrastructure grew 10 years worth of growth in about three months. So they knew this was coming, but you know we didn't know it was going to happen quite as quickly as it had to happen. So, but anyways. So if you've listened to the show before folks, you know that Antoine and I try to take issues as fun as clothing and music and and also talk about things that are very, to some extent, difficult to talk about, like a couple weeks ago when we talked about police and how. You know as much respect and you know overall just appreciation that all of us need to have, should have, for police and the work that they do and how necessary they are for the functioning of our cities and you know just our different communities. At the same point there are problems. You know, there are things that we need to deal with, And you know. So that's kind of the just right, antoine. We're just trying to discuss some things that need to be discussed.

Speaker 2:

 2:09

Yeah, so discussing these things and, in far as our one sense is concerned, some type of resolution or path to resolution or just something to leave on a positive note, but yes, it's like a definitely we, as we were discussing last week, we just, you know, we definitely have great respect for the police and what they do and the mentality and the work involved, and we also discussed that, hey, we can't allow a few bad apples to spoil the whole bunch, so to speak, or even kind of taint our way of thinking about the police as a whole.

Speaker 1:

 2:43

Yeah, you know, i'm just thinking that you're talking about that too. We have a tendency to think of a lot of these issues as us against them. You know, there's the otherization process, and what we don't seem to get, i think, is that it really is us against us. You know, we are our own worst enemies in terms of working problems out, because there is, there has never been a situation that I'm aware of, where, when people sit down and are willing to talk through the problem, willing to really be transparent about what they see and where the stumbling blocks are for them, that things don't somehow get worked out. You know, everybody doesn't get everything that they want. It ends up having some compromise involved in it, but it's. There are no problems that we have not as people, as humans, been able to overcome. As long as we approach the table with the understanding of we have to come to a solution, we have to.

Speaker 2:

 3:42

And you exactly right about that. And it's like, you know, the first thing is it has to be a desire for resolution or some type of a conclusion or some type of a remedy. It has to be a desire for it first. And in some instances you know we talked about this before that just, there's a certain groups of people that just don't want that. You know it's a, it's a have to have nots, right, you know the people that have want to keep it and have nots wanted, and so it is just you keep that your foot on the top of a person's head and then, of course, it creates a culture, it creates an environment, an atmosphere, a behavior, and things escalate, they change, you know, then the marginalization, and just it goes on and on. And but yeah, just, we desire change. I don't know about you, i know, i'm gonna guess that you are. You feel the same way I do, and it's just like we desire change. Where's the humility? That's the biggest thing, you know it. Just, i just can't fathom looking at another person and looking at them as subhuman, regardless of their class, status or race or whatever the case may be, and it just, it's just hard to view someone that way. But yet we know that that happens, and so, through God's grace and this podcast, we just hoping to soften hearts and just at least hopefully the scales will fall off her eye. A heart will be a no softened a little bit.

Speaker 1:

 5:19

Well, just think about it. Just, you know, that's, i think, ultimately right. We've said we just want people to think about Is it working? Is what we're doing right now working? You know, if, if we continue to shake the soda can and shake it, and shake it, and shake it, and shake it until either the top blows off or we realize, well, i want to drink the soda now, and it spews out, and then we go, oh my, why did that spew out? I don't understand. Well, you know, and we are, that's what we're doing with we're allowing our media to do, that's we're allowing our leaders to do, to a large extent, is to shake the can. And you know the can is is our emotions, the can is our fears, our irrationalities, our stubbornness. You know our resistance to. I mean, we're like little kids. You know you got to take this medicine. You know I don't even a T-Swerve ball. Well, you know, yeah, but if you take the medicine it's gonna help make you better. I don't want to feel better. Well, you know, come on.

Speaker 2:

 6:26

That's what we were talking about last week. We were going like again, the pros and it's kind of like a pros and cons of being the police officer, respecting the police, and yes, there's behaviors and attitudes and things like that that go with policing good and bad. And then, of course, those institutions that govern us. Those behaviors exist within the institutions And, like we're talking about, like we're gonna be talking about here shortly, the courts. You know, you got the cops, you got the courts and you got the corrections right. And so when we talk about the courts, you know these and I guess, as I again I can shamelessly say that I'm continuously learning as I get older. You know, of course. Well, you know, i would like you think about the law, the laws of the land. You think they are etched in stone, but then the more you read and look at the law is to be interpreted And it's like, okay, so depending on who's interpreting it right, that's what you're gonna get Right. And then, but no course, we'll talk about the courts. You know, just, we've seen the courts do some good things, we've seen some bad things. We see what's happening in court today.

Speaker 1:

 7:36

Right, well, how? many people to don't, don't trust the courts. You know it's, you know, a matter of you know you get a system that allows the kind of shifting they try to make it, you know, i think, fair and equitable. the point of you know case gets put out there and there's a rotation of you know judges that are available that can try certain cases and just depending on who is in the rotation, that's who you end up with as a judge. And yet I don't know that most people to trust that that's really how it works, that there aren't people that are able to get the judge they want, get the judge that's most likely to give them the decision that they want. You know, i don't know. I don't know that that happens, but I also don't know that it doesn't happen And the fact that people think that it does tells you something about the decay of the integrity of the court system, or it tells you something about the media and its representation of the court system, right?

Speaker 2:

 8:35

So there's a, it could be both.

Speaker 1:

 8:38

Yeah, you know, yeah, and it's. I mean, it's interesting. Maybe you know Lady Justice is blindfolded, right, lady Justice has the scales of justice, you know. Are they, you know, innocent or guilty? I thought it was interesting that she's blind. You know that she, she is. Why is there blind justice? I should have looked that up to find out what the symbolism is of that. If it's just so that they, they can, they have to hear the case They have to, i don't know. Maybe somebody out there listening knows the the roots of that, why she's blindfolded. You know she's not supposed to see.

Speaker 2:

 9:18

Well, I guess, like, uh, one's wealth, one's race, one's Race, color, creed is not supposed to matter. Yeah, just the scales. You know it should be balanced scales. Yeah, and that's just my, my interpretation of what makes sense.

Speaker 1:

 9:36

You know you don't want to have anything that's gonna, you know, increase your bias. So justice should be determined purely on right or wrong, you know, guilty or not guilty, and that that decision Should be as unbiased as possible. And that's therein lies the rub of what we're talking about today. I think, is that sense of is justice. Is the court system fair for all? are the same scales used For white people versus black people? you know, is it? do you start from an equal playing field or is the deck stacked against you By a basis of your color, of your skin? you know, and certainly there are historical examples of that being a king, they're being kangaroo courts all over the place. You know you wander into the wrong person's town, you know, and you know, get stopped for a speeding ticket. It may be a whole lot different story If you're black versus white.

Speaker 2:

 10:39

Well, remember Wisconsin. They always used to say back in us the early mid 80s, you come to Wisconsin on vacation, you leave on probation.

Speaker 1:

 10:51

Really that was. I didn't, i didn't know. I shouldn't laugh. That's pretty sad, but well, they were also, you know, sundown towns, right where You know you. You just knew, what was it? the green book, was that the? the book that had been published up until the 60s? even that that warned Black people, you know, stay away from these towns. Or, you know, gave the the background on which hotels would Would service black folks and which would not. You know, the court system in a sundown town was definitely going to be different than the court system in a non sundown town. It had to be, i mean it.

Speaker 2:

 11:32

Yeah, and We, we like to say that things are better today, but they are somewhat better, but they are almost as just as they are better. They are the same. You know, you can still like again. You know, when we talk about things like race and classism and all these different things, they are a part of society. So who, who are the judges? who are the police officers? who are the lawyers? They are parts of society. So, yes, these Good things in society and the bad things of society are going to be Within the institution. And so, yeah, and of course, like you said, we've seen this thing lived out member back in Ferguson, when that big Ferguson, missouri, and of course. So all that was about is because, like, people will go to, and if a person couldn't pay a hundred dollar Fine, hundred dollar traffic ticket or whatever, they end up that the fine is getting doubled and quadrupled. They end up in months in jail For a hundred books that they couldn't pay. People lost their jobs because they couldn't pay a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars. And and Again, of course, when the feds did what they did, feds did their type that they say there was some instances of wrongdoing, but of course, no one's ever gonna Admit that, but there were some instances of wrongdoing, but these things they do still exist. You know, in the course, when we're talking about the courts, you know no, when, when you go to court, depending on who you are, they'll scare you so bad. You know, hey, if you don't plead guilty, you're. You're looking at 10, 15, 20 years and of course we've seen in this is where people have played Guilty to things they had.

Speaker 1:

 13:15

They didn't even do are you aware Personally, i mean, antoine, are there folks in your You know, along your relatives, that have had court situations where it was just like Just crazy, like you know, that kind of thing where you're like, seriously, this is happening in America?

Speaker 2:

 13:34

Well, I remember my uncle got shot in the face by a grocery store owner and he wanted. He got shot in the face and he ended up in jail. Seriously so go figure. So go figure, all because of the store owner, say he felt threatened because my uncle. He said, hey, you didn't give me all my change back and it wouldn't escalated. Just give me my change back And I'll give you. Gave you a change, and before you know what, the store owner pulls a gun, shoots him in the face and then, before then of course, my uncle is Chained to a hospital bed, you know, getting his face, you know, fixed, and then, of course, from there he goes to jail and And again, it's just. Those are Instances like that, they happen, and but the thing is, it's just. It goes back to a one of the earlier Podcasts we've done about voting, being aware of, yeah, local, municipality politics, so to speak, you know, being aware of what's going on in that city, state or town, yeah, well and you think about to be a judge.

Speaker 1:

 14:41

You know, even even biblically, you know the book of judges. You know, in that whole series of of stories of the judges and the righteousness of some and the non righteousness of others I mean, it's been going on forever And the quality of the judge. You know, i don't know that we. How do you have justice with a judge that isn't Qualified? how do you have justice with a judge that you know it has proven to have biases? And you know I don't. What are the criteria for a judge appointment? I don't even know. Honestly, it seems like they're usually political appointments more than anything. Yeah, you know, and if you're gonna be a Supreme Court justice, you should have a certain amount of Qualifications. But there are documented cases of people having been appointed to The Supreme Court that you know you could make a strong case for them not being qualified. So what does that say? you know? for if we don't have something more sophisticated than some politician saying, yeah, you get to be a judge?

Speaker 2:

 15:50

And these are life in the federal course. These are lifelong appointments, right, right, right. And so that's why it again, it took some reading and understanding to get that wow, why they are doing this. You know, courses like why are, depending on who's in office, they're trying to stack the course with their judges, you know Red or blue or whatever. And I and I guess I had to read up on it and it just is like. I guess, like these federal, these District, these us, these circuit and district court judges, they have the ability to stay certain Beals and laws and like, say of, depending on what the situation is, if I guess, if they don't like this thing That's coming from Congress, they have the ability to put it on hold, you know right?

Speaker 1:

 16:36

Well, they don't, and they don't make the laws, but they interpret them right, i'll add a student loan debt relief court.

Speaker 2:

 16:43

What judge actually said?

Speaker 1:

 16:45

no, Yeah, no whole yeah, but yeah and. Right, how do these guys, how do these people get selected for? Well, how are we gonna have justice when we can't trust the justice of the justices?

Speaker 2:

 17:02

you know, and that's where, like remember, come on, like the whole the was old Wisconsin model, come on probation, leave, come on vacation, leave on probation. You know, they made a point, they, they were making. They were making a point. They, at a certain point They didn't want certain people here or they didn't know. They just not to say that there was a law broken, whether it was or was not, but either, or it just. When a coach, when multiple people do the same thing, that's a culture right, and it ain't. Let's just take cops and courts out of it, but just if people as a whole are acting and doing a certain thing, that's a culture created and that's a culture that they're trying to maintain and they're gonna exclude you at all costs. They ain't gonna, the course, they can't just tell you how they feel, but they'll make you uncomfortable as possible. I And we see that in the courts have so much power. I mean, how many lives have been changed, ruined, because of a bias on the bench?

Speaker 1:

 18:05

Yeah, and how do you check that? How do you as if you're a judge? I'd love it if a judge listening would explain this more. But what are the regulatory or self-regulation techniques that a judge uses to make sure that they're really being blind and not making an evaluation based on anything other than is this person following the rule of the law? Is there just cause And obviously a jury plays a part in that as well that the judge has to take the jury's verdict and then decide what the consequences of that should be? but not all cases are jury trials either. So we have a person here that we're entrusting to make just decisions, and it's worrisome to me because you know that if people can stand up and say I'm not guilty when it's obvious that they are guilty, so you're allowing people to enter a plea of not guilty, well, yeah, you are not guilty until proven beyond within reasonable accommodations, that you are guilty. So we'll decide that for you. But then we can stack the jury right. We can put people on that are more favorable to us personally and professionally, whatever, and are likely to see oh yeah, no, it was really, there were extenuating circumstances. And if that isn't another thing, you have a judge that says, okay, well, they said you're guilty, but gosh, i really don't want to throw the book at you because this is whatever.

Speaker 2:

 19:48

There's so many things that can go wrong because of who human beings are Absolutely, and my understanding with that one thing you just mentioned, raoul, where's the accountability with the judges? and it is almost like what I was listening to a couple of days ago. It was almost like a self. It's kind of like a peer check system, you know. It's like a judge sitting on a bench makes a ruling And if, of course, their ruling is going to be scrutinized by their peers and they're going to be like either that was dumb, stupid, silly, whatever, it didn't make sense, kind of like what happened with this judge that's probably going to be hearing about in the next couple of weeks here. But my understanding is like it'll be scrutinized, but also, if that ruling is seemed not fair or if there's some kind of a federal accountability to it, it goes to the appellant court, where that judge's decision is going to go before three of the district court or the appellant court, which is three judges, and they can overturn that judge's decision. So then that way I think the accountability, or that part is, is like them constantly having their judgments overruled or changed is attained on their reputation. So if that's, some people don't care about their reputation.

Speaker 1:

 21:11

So Well, and they're still going to. You know how many of those cases actually do get overturned right. I mean, you can play the odds, i suppose, and say, well, most times there's not going to be, you know, an appeal, or most times, even if there is an appeal, i'm still standing on some sound principles here by making this decision. So, yeah, i mean you're depending on parts of a parts of a system to involve integrity, or you know that it depends upon there being individuals in those roles that have integrity. And yet if there's one thing we prove fairly regularly is there are very few people with integrity and yet they continue to be judges, they're continue to be lawyers that are, you know, caught in all kinds of things because they didn't have any integrity. You know, i sometimes wonder is it a system of justice or is it a system of maintaining a power balance?

Speaker 2:

 22:20

I believe it's the latter. And, of course, it's like when we're talking about the law, it's not what you know, but it's who you know. because, like again, like with these appointments of these judges, left and right, it's just like Where did they come from? What's the history, what's the story? You know? what are they? How did they come up? You know, you want to get some kind of background. Just oh, this person was just appointed to this circuit or this district, you know, and it just that's all you hear. Just a, this administration appointed 80 judges. This administration appointed 100 judges. That's all you hear. But you don't hear the background of these judges and right, you know, and it's like the fairness thereof, or Their love of the law and their fairness in the law.

Speaker 1:

 23:04

Well, i, you know I can only speak to my personal experience, and I'm sure that I have. I don't know that I've shared this now It's gonna be out there in podcast land, but years ago I was arrested for Just disorderly conduct, okay, which is a misdemeanor at least it was at the time but I still, you know, i had to be arraigned for it And the guy that represented me was actually a friend of mine, so it he did it pro bono, just to assist me through that process. And You know, when I stood before the judge for the arraignment, you know I had to enter a plea and in my mind I'm thinking well, you know, i don't, i don't want to be punished for this, because I Actually had good cause. There was more to the circumstance of what, what brought me to the case where I behaved disorderly, which I understood. I had behaved disorderly, i was responsible for making the decision to do that, but I thought, you know, most rational people would have given my situation, and You know, there was just cause. That's that was I remember thinking that there was just cause for me to be disobedient, civilly disobedient. So, instead of choosing to say guilty or not guilty, there's a thing you can do where you say I, i stand mute before the charges. So I figured that way. I didn't have to lie and say I didn't do them or you know, and try to plead, i was not guilty. Nor did I have to say you know anything about? well, yeah, i did do it and you know, throw the book at me So. But it gets entered as a plea of guilty.

Speaker 2:

 24:38

You know when you know, is that the same as a no contest?

Speaker 1:

 24:41

Essentially, i mean no contest is more of a ruling. This is more of a standing that a, a criminal or you know someone who's charged with wrongdoing, can take. So I, i stood, i stood mute, which ends up being, you know, guilty. You, you don't have to, there's no trial, they're just at that point. Then they passed judgment of what, what needs to happen and I was sentenced to Take some man anger management. Of course, you know, go through a I forget how many weeks it was, but it was, it was significant. You know that I had to go to this class for multiple times And then I had probation. You know where I had to see a probation officer, if it was once a month or whatnot, but you know. So I went through that whole process and I look back at it now and think, you know, actually, that was that was really good for me, to have that direct exposure. You know direct. You know impact of my, the consequences of my actions. You know I, i can now say that I I've had handcuffs on me and been escorted into the back of a police car And felt like, oh my god, are they neighbors watching me? You know, and you know, thankfully I didn't have to go to jail. You know that was. That was good Because it was right before they started really cracking down on that. So instead I just didn't go home. You know, that night I, you know I had to go spend time with a friend or something and forget all that all worked, but anyways, it was good in that not only did I get that experience, but then I doing the anger management class was actually a really good thing for me And the same other guys that were in that class of me. One was a PhD, you know, working on a Gene gun that he called it. You know that would help with, you know, developing new kinds of mutated plants in his case. Another one was a 911 operator, you know, dispatcher for Dean County, you know. So here were these people that were in very professional, you know Positions and they were in the same disorderly conduct. You know both that I was in having to take this anger management class and so that was, you know I recognized the Pervasiveness of the problem. You know that there were. It wasn't just, you know, i wasn't. I couldn't call it low life, you know, the whole life there. And criminal justice system No, it's people all over the place and we all were guilty and we admitted our guilt and then. But then to be on probation You don't have to report, you know, monthly, or I don't I wish I could remember, was it monthly, you know, and have to go up and do that. It was all humiliating, you know, but humiliation is a good thing, right, yeah. But then I look at all that and I think, how, how would that have been different for you?

Speaker 2:

 27:38

You know what's the like situation numerous times myself and I've been in numerous courtrooms For numerous reasons. Not like I'll say I was laughing. I was like I've never been given the option to say I plead mute to the charge. My public defender has never said I could be mute. He's like either you're guilty, not guilty, or no contest. And I'm assuming that no contest is maybe Equivalent to mute because they should. You're saying like I'm not, i ain't admitting guilt, but I ain't trying to sell me to anybody, just you just. Okay that you doubt you say I did All right, no contest. Yeah, yeah and just to try to get the minimal. But again is, in those, in those situations, in those systems, just you have to go, you and it's like this if you knew, you did it. Just you know, like that, cuz I know I messed up, so I ain't gonna even yeah, i did it right right And so it was just like all right, but it's like still the soft and the blow. You just say, okay, no contest, because basically that had been the equivalent to me pleading guilty, because the public defender's like you don't. You're gonna sit for four days. Regardless of what you say, i do so so just take you.

Speaker 1:

 28:51

Take your medicine and deal with it.

Speaker 2:

 28:52

Yeah, and yet you know when you look at the court system.

Speaker 1:

 28:55

You know they're all kinds of people that just get away with stuff right and But yes, and it cuz again.

Speaker 2:

 29:01

It's like how many people in the world that have a pet they've been, they've been made to plead To a charge that they didn't even do? just say, okay, if you, if this thing, go to trial, you're gonna do 15 years, but if you plead guilty, you'll just do three right. So and it's like you, uh, and You don't have money for a lawyer. So you're just looking at the public defender, who is stressed out and overworked and he's like you should take this deal, and you're pounding the table saying I didn't do this, it wasn't me, you know, whatever the case may be, and And you end up people end up taking a plea to a crime They didn't commit and then that's on their record forever, right?

Speaker 1:

 29:44

You plead? guilty ever day you admitted you were guilty.

Speaker 2:

 29:48

But you had to because you just like either I'm gonna do 15 years or three, right, right. But either way your life is ruined because whatever you had going at that time, you're gonna lose it, right? you know, if you pay, check the paycheck, you had a girl and two kids waiting on you, right that was, it was a done deal.

Speaker 1:

 30:09

Well, and then you sit back and say, well, they shouldn't have done what they did. Then you know well, yeah, but we're not even sure that they did do what you know, but that's a And that's why it's hard to help people in outreach.

Speaker 2:

 30:21

Now, you know, because even, like you know I think I may have mentioned this to you before like when it comes to resources in the community to get help, whether it's, you know, for aging and disability, adult education, rehabilitative services, anytime you think, okay, let's go to the city, the county to get you some help, right, the person would be like, nah, i'm not going into it because, again, even though, like you know, in some instances these resources have been out, they're no longer in the court building, but still you associate these things with institution, in court, as institution, so you don't want to have any parts of it. So it's like you have to really lower the walls and explain things to people saying, yes, i understand your fear and understand why you feel that way, but this resource is not in the court building or this does not determine, you know this, that or the other. You know what I mean. You have to explain and break things down in order to really get people's walls down, to get them the help they need. But you know, of course, like when you think about Chicago it's funny, chicago, la, you know, it's like these people are getting railroaded left and right. You know you. Don't you guilty by association. You know you are you just whether you did it or not. If you, if one just like, say, for instance, you and I were standing, you and I went to a store And let's just say you pulled a gun and decide to rob the store. I didn't know you were going to rob the store, i didn't know you had a gun, but I'm an accessory to armed robbery just because I was with you.

Speaker 1:

 32:03

Yeah, yeah Is there and it was like you know, i was thinking about this last time when we talked about police too. Is there a difference in your mind, like what was the case in? you mentioned it There was one in New York to where there's video of black officers beating a black man in Memphis. Yeah, was it Memphis? I thought there was one in New York.

Speaker 2:

 32:28

Just recently.

Speaker 1:

 32:29

What was Memphis Okay?

Speaker 2:

 32:31

The most recent one was Memphis.

Speaker 1:

 32:33

Okay.

Speaker 2:

 32:34

A couple months ago.

Speaker 1:

 32:35

Yeah, Okay, And how does that happen? I mean, and I'm wondering too, like this goe