Part 2 of my interview with Jamie Sathasivim and Alex Austin from Hope House of South Central Wisconsin. The first episodes in my series of "New Year's Resolution" Podcasts. I wanted to start 2022 with shows that focus on important issues that need to change in our communities, if we are going to be the best we can be. One of the goals of this effort is to elevate our awareness of the size and scope of problems like Domestic Abuse and to point out educational resources, and ways to be part of restorative support programs for victims in our area and, hopefully, WAY beyond.
The New Year is a time to reflect on the personal and communal things that we can do better, and to find ways to accomplish those things. My guests for this week's and next week's podcasts can help us all do better at helping those caught in a domestic abuse situation, by knowing what it looks like and helping victims to find a way out. One way out is through the services offered at Hope House of South Central Wisconsin.
Jaime Sathasivam is the Co-Executive Director for Hope House of South Central Wisconsin. Hope House serves survivors of intimate partner violence, child abuse and sexual violence in Sauk, Columbia, Juneau, Marquette and Adams Counties. Following graduate school Jaime worked with runaway and hopeless youth and found a desire to stay in trauma-based support work. Other professional experience includes working at the Director of Client Services at Rape Crisis Center in Madison for five years, and working at the State Department of Justice on the Sexual Assault Kit Initiative (SAKI) project for a year before coming to Hope House in late 2019. To decompress from work Jaime spends time with her children and enjoys traveling, and crafting.
Alex Austin has been an Outreach Advocate with Hope House of South-Central Wisconsin since November of 2020. Prior to that, Alex worked in a residential treatment center for kids and adolescents with significant mental health diagnoses. Alex has an undergraduate degree in Human Services and is currently working toward a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. In her free time, Alex enjoys spending time with her young daughter, reading and writing, spending time outside, and planning adventures.
If you want to learn more about Domestic Abuse check out these sites for more resources, information and educational opportunities:
Announcer: 0:04
Welcome to frame of reference informed intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world, in depth interviews with salt counties, leaders and professionals to help you expand in and form your frame of reference, brought to you by the max FM digital network. Now, here's your host, Rauel LaBreche.
Rauel LaBreche:
0:25
Welcome to another edition of frame of reference. We are Have we started last week with an interview with Jamie Sathasivam. And Alex Austin. Jamie is the executive director and Alex is the outreach advocate for whole policy. So I hope you listened to last week if you didn't go back and listen to the last week's episode, because we've just started getting into one thing that was a fantastic fascinating was the anger control wheel right? Wheel, which, you know, if you listen to that and start to go, oh, oh, oh, you'll get a better feel for what abuse is what it can look like. And
Alex Austin:
1:03
just just to note, you can Google that to the power and control wheel. And that will come up and you can see everything that we talked about.
Rauel LaBreche:
1:10
It strikes me too, that, you know, I've done harassment training where I work at Macfarlanes. And one of the principles that I tried to get people to understand right away with that is that harassment is not about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's doing unto others as they would have you do unto them. So it seems to be part of that equation is to understand that when someone is feeling abused, it's not about whether or not the other person thinks they're abusing you. It's about you feeling abused, or that you're interpreting it as abuse. Is that a fair assessment? Or am I missing a part of that? My understanding?
Jamie Sathasivum:
1:46
I think it's kind of that's a parallel to what we talked about a lot is impact. Not intent. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So if what you're doing is hurting me, maybe you should look at what you're doing now. Not give me a justification for why you're doing it.
Rauel LaBreche:
2:01
Yeah. Cuz that's really easy thing to do, isn't it to see, well, I just was doing that. Because that or I didn't mean it that way. And that's your fault for interpreting it that way. Right? And then, right away, it's into power and control.
Unknown:
2:12
Yeah, yes. Yep. That's that minimizing and denying and blaming thing that we talked about?
Rauel LaBreche:
2:17
So the gut check, then for the abuser is to say, at some point, you have to say, it's not really important, what I think I was doing, it's the impact show, and do you care about that impact or not? Which is, it strikes me that a lot of simple, that's your problem, not mine? Right? which then enables you to keep going,
Unknown:
2:35
and that's the challenge, too. And that's, you know, I mentioned narcissism. And with a narcissist, which is often an element in abuse. The thing a narcissist, you know, they don't they think they're perfect, right? So there's no way for them they're not they've lack empathy. A, that's like, one of the key characteristics of a narcissist is they don't have the capacity to be empathetic. And be they don't have the capacity to be retrospective or reflective. So they, they think that they do nothing wrong. So why would they change? You know, so very often abusers, their intent is to hurt Yes. But in your scenario, just as people, how can we be better people is to reflect on the impact over the intent?
Rauel LaBreche:
3:20
Sure. Well, and recognize, yeah, that I mean, it's the same thing with me, I may think that someone intended something. And, you know, after talking with him realized I didn't intend it that way. But the impact was still, that it angered me, it hurt me, it made me sad, you know, I felt disrespected. And if the other person doesn't recognize that, it then what's the old thing, it adds insult to injury, right. And by doing that,
Unknown:
3:46
that's also an opportunity, you know, to look at your own triggers to if you felt a certain way about something that someone did. And you're able to have that open communication with that person. And they say, Well, I'm very sorry that it hurt you. But you know, that my intention was this. And this is, you know, outside of an abusive type relationship is where I'm thinking here. But just to be able to look at, okay, why did that impact me that way? Then, you know, if, if this was something innocent, you know, maybe there's something there that I need to work through?
Rauel LaBreche:
4:16
Sure. Is there a spectrum to abuse? Like, where is bullying, I would think is part of abuse. Right? So is there are there terms that we use or that you use internally to kind of describe, you know, bad, worse, worst kind of thing. And abusive relationship
Unknown:
4:34
really is a spectrum. But I would say that it's on an individual to determine where on that spectrum something lies, right. Like, I don't get to say, I think Alex was talking in your last episode about how for some people the physical might be might be the worst, and for others, the emotional or the financial might be more impactful. So I don't get to say, well, she has, you know, X marks and that is the worst thing where she might be saying it's the way he's made me feel about myself. If that's how he's damaged my self esteem and my ability to, to feel good about myself and my self worth. So yeah, it definitely is a spectrum. But I guess I couldn't say because it's so individualized, yeah, where what is the most damaging on that spectrum, I wouldn't even I would almost not even put it on a linear spectrum, it would almost be like a, you know, a circle, because there's just so many different types. And, like Jamie said, we can't it's, I mean, I'm always very careful not to make that determination, or even use language that implies that someone's situation is worse than someone else. Because that's something that we do hear a lot, too is, you know, I know, so many people have it so much worse, or I know, he's not hitting me. So you know, I know, I'd feel stupid even saying this, or coming to you guys with this stuff like that. So and I'm always very, I always make sure I say, you know, just because you know, someone else's situation might look different doesn't make your situation any less traumatic, and it doesn't make how you're feeling any less valid. Yeah, so,
Rauel LaBreche:
6:04
you know, it makes me think of those, I forget what they call that kind of graph where the, there's the points on the graph, and then going on to what's called a scatter plot, scatter plot. Yeah, it makes me think of a scatter plot, and you can see, like, there are tend to be like, areas that locus together, but then there will be these outliers. That, you know, and I would think there are outliers, that something that wouldn't normally seem like it would be that big of a deal, maybe in a lot of people's perspective, is a huge deal for the person and, you know, think about that we all have different backgrounds, right? different upbringings different experiences as we're growing up. So I know, I've spent years in therapy, you know, trying to figure out why certain kinds of things really impact on me. And, you know, I can always trace it back to a series of learn behaviors, and, you know, situations I was involved in that, at that time really impacted, you know, right. So you're talking about that actually, before, Alex, about the studies that you're working on or through with your doctorate, right, that there is the trauma. Yeah, who's the the professor that
Unknown:
7:08
I was talking about Peter Levine and his work in Cymatics, and trauma and how you know, the body holds on to that trauma impact. Right. imprint?
Rauel LaBreche:
7:17
Sure. So, is there? And can we talk stats for a little bit just to get some our heads around some of that? What are some of the most salient statistics realities of abuse in our area nationally, globally? Can you speak to that? Am I asking too general the question or are there like the these are the touchstones that we use to indicate
Unknown:
7:39
lots of different stats? Are you talking about violent financial, emotional, but yeah, I mean, roughly one in three people what running through one in three women, excuse me, and one in five men will be impacted by some sort of abuse, whether that be financial, emotional, or physical abuse, that they would characterize as abuse. And so it's, it's a prevalent issue. And we we see those numbers, right, we provide 1000s and 1000s of beds days each year. And we serve many hundreds of survivors each year. And so in the five counties we serve, we're seeing, we're seeing those those stats come to life
Rauel LaBreche:
8:18
in the population. So if you're dealing with hundreds in the population is what maybe 150 200,000 In those five counties total. So it's a pretty significant population,
Unknown:
8:29
and we're not catching even the majority of them, right. I mean, we're just catching a fraction who know about us or feel safe enough to call us. We're not We're not touching anywhere near, you know, the total total. Yeah, right.
Rauel LaBreche:
8:40
So are there are there there tend to be like certain areas, do you think are conditions within geographically or economically that tend to make it more prevalent? Or, like, are urban areas more inclined than rural areas? Is it
Unknown:
8:58
access is different, but the, you know, the data shows that the numbers are pretty consistent across the board, but certainly our access is going to be different. So someone who's living in a really rural community in Marquette, or Adams County, may have less access than someone who's living here in Sacani. in Baraboo, for instance, in the Dells nearby, so.
Rauel LaBreche:
9:16
And when you're saying access, is it access to services,
Unknown:
9:19
services, access to support, access to information, all of that, you know, terms of like knowing about whole house, so you
Rauel LaBreche:
9:27
wouldn't even know that you can't count it? Because you don't know what it is essentially, where you can't include in the stats. Yeah.
Unknown:
9:33
And I mean, we have ways that you know, that, like law enforcement will let a survivor know about us, but that's, that means that they have to call law enforcement to get that information. And that doesn't always happen. You know, you could find us on a quick Google search but again, if you don't have access to the internet, or don't, you know, if your phone is monitored, like there's a lot of factors there. So this is why our education team is so important. So we have a couple of youth advocates are Few youth advocates who go out into schools across the five county service area and they talk about hope houses services, they talk about what is sexual violence? What is domestic violence? Who could you call? Could you call Hope House? How do you in touch with us? And how can you support people that you love, if they disclose to you. So it doesn't have to be that they always come to us, it can be that we have this sort of little forgive the expression or nail do but like well, army of people in all of these communities who are advocating for survivors, independent of Hope House
Rauel LaBreche:
10:31
work. The worker bees are buzzing into a situation,
Unknown:
10:36
right? Like we could not support everyone without them. Right, but not know that people are getting,
Rauel LaBreche:
10:42
I mean, with the numbers you're talking about, we'd have to be spending as much as we spend on the military on this sort of mental health, recovery in reaction. Absolutely. To be able to make the dent in it we need to make, right. So without volunteers, where it's hopeless enough, without not me, the volunteers that care enough to do something. I keep thinking too about, you know, the obstacles to getting help, the obstacles to even recognizing and confronting your own need for help. I mean, how, how do you break that down for someone that is being abused is obviously um, it's like, why it couldn't be more obvious if they were walking around with their arm hanging in a bone sticking out? You have a compound fracture? Yeah. So and yet, they're still coping. So perhaps the fact that while I'm still getting by, he's not hitting me or she's not, you know, attacking me, whatever. Because we have a tendency to think about this as men against women. And that makes a lot of medical honorable. Yeah, but it does go both ways. But by far, men are the greater culprits. Are they not? I mean, it's okay. So it's not like, you know, guys can walk off scot free on the whole thing, nor can they,
Unknown:
11:53
you know, whatever nobody gets, nobody gets a pass on this. Right? Yeah,
Rauel LaBreche:
11:56
abuses abuse, it's not gender specific.
Unknown:
11:59
And, you know, I think also a lot of the time, it's hard, because the way that men grow up in our society, you know, like, you have to be a man, you can't show emotions, you can't do this, you can't do that toxic masculinity, you know, quote, unquote, I mean, that contributes hugely to this, because A, that teaches men, not how to deal with their emotions, you know, so they get buried, buried, buried, and then we don't know how to deal with them on the inside. So they come out explosively on the outside, and be if a man is being abused in a relationship by a woman, like, that is a huge barrier, because no, like, many men aren't going to want to admit that, you know, and they think that they can handle it or they don't think they think it's a sign of weakness that you know, if they need help. So sure, I think a big piece to kind of overcoming that and kind of getting someone to an in again, like, for me as an advocate in my position, I'm never going to push anybody one way or the other. I'm there to empower I'm there to support no matter what decisions are made. But I think education is probably like, the most important thing when it comes to getting someone to kind of realize where they're at. And I think that's one of the reasons that we do get survivors calling our Hotline and just wanting to talk and to try to understand their own situation. Because, I mean, there's definitely people who don't realize things that they are being abused, you know, so when you just kind of talk about what abuse looks like, how many, you know, it could be this, this and this, and then they sit there and you bring that to awareness, and then it's like, Okay, I can't deny this anymore. You know,
Rauel LaBreche:
13:34
so then someone can finally realize that they're in a toxic, abusive relationship. It strikes me too, then it takes a tremendous amount of courage to confront it, and and believe that you can actually overcome it. Yeah. Right. So with the person that's at that phase, where they, they just see the cards so stacked against them. How do you how do you help them find that courage? Because they've got to have it right. They've got to have the commitment to deal with the huge things are gonna come up as a result of finally confronting it. Yeah, yeah. So really, we're How do you educate? How do you prepare someone for that? Because it must be hard to convince them that, hey, those are all real concerns. But staying in is much, much worse than getting out. Yep. Yeah. And
Unknown:
14:25
I think all of our advocates, we work on an empowerment based model. And so for us, it's it's your right, like, it's that courage, but it's also fear that sometimes motivates people to call in, but their courage is always present. Even if you're afraid you have to have the courage to pick up the phone and do that. But our empowerment based model really is what what do you think is best and how can we support you and that no, that is what we see our role as it's really not, hey, here's what you need to do. It's it's maybe informing them that we see them at real danger that we see lethality as a as a high risk. factor for them at this point. But ultimately, they know their situation, the entirety of it. And it's our role just to support them through restraining order support through a criminal justice, you know, process or just through getting shelter or finding a safe place for the night or safety planning for what happens if this happens. Again, I mean, safety planning is number one, right? Do you know that you could call us back? If that happens again? Do you know that even if you've called us 100 times before and weren't ready to leave 101, we're here for you. Yeah. And so I guess maybe even just talking about all of the services that Hope House offers would be important. So we do have a pretty robust team of advocates, and a couple of bilingual advocates, Spanish speaking, advocates, as well. And our advocates offer obviously, that 24/7 hotline support, we have a shelter. We also offer victim advocacy for restraining order support for criminal justice reports and through the whole criminal justice process. So law enforcement reports, all the way through a trial if one happens, and then we go to sexual assault nurse exams with victims, you know, regularly. So if someone's experienced strangulation, or physical abuse or sexual violence, there's a number of sexual assault nurse examiner programs in our area and in Madison, and will accompany them there. And it really is about, we're here to be your kind of backup to give you that emotional support, the resources and the information so that you're not here alone, having to remember all of this or navigate this by yourself, let us let us back you up and be there for you through this whole process. So if you're not sure what you need, if you just need someone to talk to and say, It's okay, I'm here for you call or call our helpline, and it's 608356 7500 or visit our website and get more information about all of our services. And like I said, we have the education and community outreach services as well. It's just I can't say enough about our team. We're really, really lucky. Lucky to have such a great team and so many programs.
Rauel LaBreche:
17:01
Sure, folks, I'm going to take another quick break and we're going to come back and talk about that. Let's talk get that phone number at least another another half a dozen times if we need to. But I'm talking with Alex Austin and Jamie SAF Facism. We're going to take another quick break. Do your word from our sponsors here and any news of Max FM don't go anywhere. We'll be back to wrap up. This difficult but extremely important discussion. You're on frame of reference. If winter is getting the upper hand fight back with Simplicity's, most powerful single stage snow throwers, featuring the snow shredder serrated auger. This powerful feature easily clears heavily compacted snow and ice allowing you to clear snow faster compared with our other simplicity single stage snowblowers not to mention now you can finally tackle tough and complicated end of driveways snow left behind the snow plow Macfarlanes, one block south of highway 12 at 72. Carolina Street, where service is a family tradition. And we're back here at frame of reference guests are Jamie Sathasivam. And Alex Austin. Alex and Jamie worked with a wonderful organization in the bear boo area that serves a five county radius is that right? So Hope House, which you can get to at their website, Hope House Hope House s CW for sell Central Wisconsin? Well POS s cw.org phone number 608356 7500 Make sure that you write those numbers down and we'll get into a couple more times but because this I suspect virtually everyone listening to this know somebody who is being abused right now. And they either don't know about it, they suspect it but haven't had the courage themselves to ask about it, or are involved in it and have been trying to deny it, whatever. are what are the stages that someone goes through recognize they're in abuse and they need to get out of it. Are there is there like a set kind of textbook thing there?
Unknown:
19:04
You know, I don't think so to be honest with you. I mean, I guess I would say that there's gonna be there's going to be alarm bells that are going off you know, internally and those are maybe like the red flags that people talk about a lot of time we ignore them and deny them but eventually there's going to come a point where you're going to sit you might have it might just be like you know a flash second of like this isn't right. Because you know being in that situation is gonna you get just it's almost like an indoctrination like you just get to the point where you're so used to it being this way you think you deserve it, you know, you don't even know who you are. You can't make your own choices, all of these things, but then eventually there's gonna be you know, a flash thought of I deserve better than this. And I think that's probably what starts it. And then, I mean, you might start to disconnect a little bit or you're gonna start to see the difference. ways that your beat that you know that this person's being bad to you or treating you badly or being abusive. And you'll just start to see that more and more. And I think like we've talked about before the education piece is really helpful in that. You might see the ways that it's affecting your kids.
Rauel LaBreche:
20:19
Yeah, can you nip nip it in the bud? I mean, is there, you know, let's say you're just dating someone. And, you know, if you see certain things in the relationship, can you? Are there warning flags there to that before you're all emotionally attached? You know, do you do training for just, you know, young women, young men to say, Okay, here's the warning signs. You know, when you see this, you're starting, you're getting really infatuated some bla bla bla, here's the things you need to be mourning. Well, Robinson warning, right. Is there anything like that, that?
Alex Austin:
20:49
I don't think we offer anything like that? But
Unknown:
20:51
no, we don't offer a training specifically for that. But I think it's it's what we can do as a society as a community is encourage women to listen to their own voice, right? And to not second guess it or minimize those things, right. And if we build up women, too, or anyone really, I shouldn't say women, I shouldn't make it a gender. But if we build up everyone really to listen to their own voice and trust in their, their own instincts and their own feelings and intuitions. That's, that's a good starting place. Right? And to have the confidence to know that if someone's not right for you, you can move on. Right. Right. Sure. And that you deserve somebody who's going to treat you right
Rauel LaBreche:
21:31
now. Isn't that interesting? The self evaluation component, you know, because we're, you know, that it's like, I think sometimes that's all Don't think so much of yourself, right? thing? It's just like, Well, no, I think our problem really is more, don't think so little of yourself exactly. Which if we didn't have that as a pervasive element in our culture nation, this probably wouldn't be as big a problem as it is, right. And accountability. I mean, I think of that, too, that, you know, again, I'll, as a man, I'm going to call us men on the carpet here and say, I don't think men have been accountable for way too long, and haven't been accountable in the right ways for behaving in a way that is appropriate, loving, kind, compassionate, empathetic, you know, as you were alluding to, before, you know, men don't have a lot of emotional training, we, we tend to graze boys as being well, when you feel this, you're angry. And when you feel this, you're angry. And when you feel this, you're angry, you know, instead of learning all the words that there are to describe our feelings and say, Well, no, what I really am is disappointed. But it really am. It's just frustrated. What I really am is sad and depressed about the situation. But it's coming out as anger, because that's the only thing I can identify it as right. Yep. So you know, just to give, my daughter says, I'm the gay, straight man you'll ever meet when she's introduced me friends. I'm like, Hey, I guess that's a compliment. Thank you. So and, you know, and I think of I want more gay men, if that's what it means, you know, I want more gay men in our society. Right? And I have two gay brothers. And they're some of the most sensitive empathetic people I know, right? Men? So yeah, how do we train that? I mean, do you do any of that kind of training for men to to say, Hey, these are the things you need to do a self checkout? Or Or do you recommend agencies for men that are trying to recover from their own abusive tendencies?
Unknown:
23:13
Well, we don't do anything for any specific gender. We serve all genders, but we don't really work with batters in that capacity. But there are batterers treatment programs in Madison, would say that, you know, those treatment programs don't have the highest rate of success, but they do offer, you know, some support and you know, if someone feels like they're a good candidate for that, then they should explore that for sure. Or one on one therapy also. And I would note, too, that I feel like we are headed in a good direction. As far as that goes, we're kind of as a society going through a shift where it is becoming more accepted, you know, and men are being told that, you know, it's safe to feel your emotions, it's safe to have emotions, it's safe to express them. It's safe to communicate with your partner and with people who care about you. So I think that we're headed in the right direction. There's definitely a lot of work to do there still. But yeah, I feel like the number one thing is, if you are aware enough, or recognize that you are, you know, you have these tendencies, definitely seek out therapy.
Rauel LaBreche:
24:14
Yeah. Right. And that's helped me tremendously just in dealing with my own trauma. Yeah, things that happened and, you know, be really easy to say, it's interesting, because you're talking about the power and control our circle. And there are, I think that our tendency is for men to minimize for, you know, to try to, you know, deny their own things that are going on that are making them batterers. Yeah. And I think it's not a big deal. I just get angry sometimes, you
Unknown:
24:41
know, that I've seen before and that's how it absolutely does stem from trauma. Absolutely. 100%. Like they you know, early childhood trauma is definitely like the biggest precursor to someone becoming an abuser and it's, you know, the power and control wheel. It's all about control. So think about a child who's Growing up in a violent household or a household where some parents addicted to drugs or someone's incarcerated or something like that, you know, they might grow up trying to control everything and everyone around them, because they never were able to have that safe, secure environment around them as a child. And for me
Rauel LaBreche:
25:17
the important delineator there is it's not an excuse, correct? explanation. It's a criteria, perhaps, but yeah, just don't use it as an excuse. Drugs
Unknown:
25:26
and alcohol are not an excuse, either, which I think is a big misconception, like, oh, well, you know, he wouldn't do this, if he wasn't drinking and stuff like that, like, that's one thing that, you know, we always make sure to note that, you know, okay, the drugs and alcohol might lower inhibitions, and there might be, you know, might be a contributor, but it's not an excuse, and it's not the reason that it's happening. Right.
Rauel LaBreche:
25:47
Right. So, um, Alex, you were saying, when we were off before that you also had something about cycle of violence, or Yeah, information there, we should talk about
Unknown:
25:56
Yeah, the cycle of violence is, so it's like a three phase thing that kind of, it's a cycle that goes on in abusive relationships. And so it starts with the honeymoon phase, right, so you meet this person, and they are going to sometimes you hear it referred to as love bombing, and they're just gonna charm the pants off of you, you know, they're gonna buy you everything tell you all of the things that you've always wanted to hear, they're going to just draw you in really quickly, you know, and make you just, you know, feel like the luckiest person in the world. Because this person loves you so much. After the honeymoon phases, the tension building phase. So this is where you start to get that feeling that you're walking on eggshells, maybe there's little things that's making this person mad, you know, just small things. So you're trying to do everything perfectly to kind of make sure you know, keep the peace. Maybe there's little spats about this or that, but but you can feel that tension, you know. And eventually you get to the explosion phase, which is where something big happens, maybe there's a physical altercation, maybe there's just a really bad fight argument maybe law enforcement involved, there's, you know, a number of things that could happen, maybe the victim leaves at this point. And after that, that's when the cycle starts over. So that's when the abuser is going to be saying I'm so sorry, I you know, I just love you so much. It'll never happen again, I'll change I'll do this, I'll do that buying flowers, buying chocolates buying, you know, doing whatever, sending gifts, just doing all kinds of things to try to pull you back in, and a lot of the time it works. So then you're back in the honeymoon phase, and things are okay for maybe a month or so. And then it moves on to that tension building phase again. So it's just a cycle over and over and over that is textbook for these types of relationships.
Rauel LaBreche:
27:40
Jamie, what do you see as the what are we missing? What have we not talked about in this? I'm putting you on the seat as executive director of the organization. But what if there's one thing that people would take away from this podcast and this discussion? What is it? Oh, gosh, there's so many things, but one of the things I
Unknown:
28:02
would be that it can happen to anyone and that it is that there is no discrimination when it comes to violence. And it it is happening to someone you know, whether you realize it or not.
Rauel LaBreche:
28:11
And it's not just you're getting beaten, I mean, it's
Unknown:
28:15
it can be emotional abuse, it can be financial abuse, it can be physical abuse, and it's it's it, it does not discriminate in any way.
Rauel LaBreche:
28:24
And it may just be one or two of those things that may be all of them. I mean, just you know, don't, don't limit it in your own head. If you're feeling abused, trust your feelings.
Unknown:
28:33
Okay. And if we know that we all know someone, then if we are feeling that that may be happening to someone we care about, you know, the best things you can do is be an open support and encourage them and just say, you know, you can call me for any reason, no judgement. You know, no, no advice. I'm not looking to give you advice. I'm just looking to support someone discloses to you, you just say how can I? How can I thank you for sharing that with me? How can I support you? What would you like to do? And how can I be helpful with that? Sure. And then back it up, be there for that person? Right, right. And then like Alex was talking about, you know, prevention and education. We don't want to be doing this forever. I would love to be out of a job. I would love for the next generation to never see this. So let's talk about these things with our kids. Let's, let's communicate effectively and demonstrate for them what effective and open communication is what boundary setting looks like. Like you were talking about with anger, let's let's say anger is a secondary emotion. You're saying you're angry. But what happened that made you angry? Oh, it sounds like you were embarrassed. Or it sounds like you felt dismissed or unheard. And let's label those things for our little kids and let them start to identify that so that they can they can identify what triggers that anger and then we can help them process that really effectively. So there's just there's so much work to be done in all the different areas from prevention to response, but it really is about being open to supporting people and being open to supporting our children in feeling confident as they grew up and having that self esteem to know that no one deserves this, right? And no one deserves for you to do this to them,
Rauel LaBreche:
30:11
right? It's interesting. I keep thinking of like business and, you know, analogies and like the you know, if you can name it, you can claim it right? Yeah. Big, big, big thing, right? And yet to me that, yeah. Okay. So you're wealthier if you get there that will thing in your eye. But more importantly, is if you can name the emotion, then you can claim the responsibility for doing something about right. So if we can have that sense of you know, I'm sorry, I don't know what your intention was. But boy, that made me really feel disrespected. I didn't mean any disrespect. Okay. Well, Help me Help me understand this. Okay, nonverbal stuff is going on, right there is it's adding to my conclusion that you were being disrespected. Because you're are disrespectful, right? So do you do any of that kind of? Or do you leave that to the counselors, when you're when you're talking to somebody and helping to bring them into? You know, okay, let's get you out of the situation, this is what we're going to do. But what does that look like that? What is what should a person expect? Once they've said, Okay, I'm getting out?
Unknown:
31:10
Oh, there's a lot of supportive counseling. If that's what is that? What kind of what Yeah,
Rauel LaBreche:
31:14
I mean, what does it look like? What can it What should a person look to as like, you know, this is where you're gonna go to this is the light at the end of the tunnel? Yeah, once you make that courageous step to get out. So
Unknown:
31:24
it can feel so overwhelming once you do make that decision. Okay, so or even coming up to that. So there's a lot of conversations around different options. And that's kind of what my role is, is I'll lay out those options. And also, Okay, which one, you know, feels right to you. And it's, we just take it one step at a time, you know, safety planning that, like Jamie mentioned earlier is a big one, we're constantly talking about ways to keep ourselves safe. And that can be as simple as just talking through a plan if something happens. Yeah, and just, I mean, consistently, just reminding the survivor that, you know, they do have the strength and they are capable, and they are worth it. And that there is, you know, life on the other side of this. And, I mean, I don't sugarcoat things, I will straight up, tell them, this is going to be hard, but you're gonna do it. And I'm gonna be right here with you, you know. And that I guess, like, for me, that would be the biggest takeaway that I would want people to remember from this is that they're, you know, you're not alone. Like we're here. There's so many people that are available for help. And if we can't help you with it, I'm going to find you somebody who can. We work with a lot of the community agencies, we partner with pretty much every agency in the in all of our counties. So if I can't help you, I can, I bet you I can find someone who can write.
Rauel LaBreche:
32:42
I think what I'm what I'm appreciating in this is that you're not directing people or telling this is what you have to do, which is important. I think anyone that's listening and thinks that they have someone in their life that they need to counsel, but it's not about being directed. It's about being heard.
Unknown:
32:57
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, imagine how empowering it is, though. Like, there's a difference between, especially as a victim or survivor, who's been told what to do for X amount of years, and has been has been controlled and just had everything you know, laid out for them. There's a huge difference between them coming to us and asking us what to do, and me telling them do A, B, and C and you'll be fine. between that, and you know, me saying well, here's your options, A, B, and C, what do you want to do what feels right for you? And then they do it. And it's just so it's amazing to see the power of something like that, to see just something as simple. And I mean, it's not simple. So I don't mean to like, downplay it, but something like filing a restraining order and going to court and facing your abuser and being able to testify to your statement and say, Yeah, he did all of these things to me, you know, something like that can just be incredibly empowering. Is it scary? Absolutely. But when you are done with that, it's I mean, it's it's just really powerful to watch the transformation that happens through a process like that,
Rauel LaBreche:
34:00
you know, you talk to like war veterans, and they'll tell you Yeah, being in a battle is absolutely one of the most terrifying things you can endure, but coming out victorious, nothing like it. Yeah. You know, and knowing that the people that were alongside you that fought alongside you, you know, you're more loyal to them. Anybody else
Unknown:
34:19
right, in that, you know, even when it comes to the court process and restraining orders, you know, even if you don't win, it's about and I always tell my clients is to it's also it's about more than that, you know, it's about setting that boundary and letting them know that you're done and that that behavior is not going to be accepted anymore. And having your voice heard. Because you know, you've been silenced for so long and to be able to sit in a courtroom and tell people who have some authority, right. This is what happened to me. Yeah, it's really impactful.
Rauel LaBreche:
34:45
So here's a question I'd like to wrap up to when I when we can unless there's something I'm missing. So I don't want to shut down anything we didn't get Okay. Imagine, I don't know 10 years however long you know, you guys both can you in this or, or whatnot, or you just move on to something else is there? Is there a legacy? Is there a thing that you would like people to be able to look at? You know, your picture on the wall? Jamie is that of course connected to yours as advocate and be able to say, Yeah, Jamie was really, I loved how she or you know, Aleks always made me feel the legacy, you know, the things we leave behind. So, is there a mark that your hope you're making? What does that Mark look like?
Unknown:
35:30
I guess my mark evolves with the role changes, right. So in my current role, I hope it's that my staff know, my team knows that they're a part of something bigger, and that people support them and appreciate the work they do. And when I was in an advocacy role, and putting that hat on, I hope it's that people know that. I believe survivors, and I have their back.
Rauel LaBreche:
35:53
Yeah. So it really is. That's an interesting leadership quality, too. Is that that desire to serve? Right, and to know that you are serving as an Inspire? Right. And there's also that quality of I know, I know what it is to walk. You know, it's like in war, you know, the best commanders are the ones that have been on the Vox bulls, right. So, Alex,
Unknown:
36:18
um, I feel like, for me, it would be just, I would want people to feel like, like I was a safe space for them, like I was someone that they could come to without any fear of judgment. And that, you know, they knew that they could always rely on me. And that, yeah, yeah. support and empower,
Rauel LaBreche:
36:42
support and empower. Wow, there's a great thing to think about support and empower, support and empower. Maybe that can be our mantra going forward, and that you can use when you're talking or dealing with anyone that you suspect, or if you are yourself are feeling like this resonates with you in some way. Right. So my guest today has been Alex Austin, that advocacy outreach advocate for more polish and Jamie Safa says, Oh, it's just getting worse. Just I you know, it's like, I've got a mental barrier to say, scepticism, Sufism. I give it up. I'm sorry, folks, I am a failure a completely. Don't do not give me any names. I will not have any more guests on my show with more than three cell roles right? In in their names. So, Jamie, thank you so much, the CO Executive Director of the whole pulse as well, again, that information if you're, if you need to help someone, support someone, empower someone or you yourself, need to be hopeful and empower yourself. Please call their hotline 6083567 570 500 Yep, sorry. 500. And it's 24/7. There will always be somewhere there's someone there to answer the call. Yep.
Unknown:
38:02
Okay, language, we use language liner. We have Spanish speaking employees. Feel free to call for any need.
Rauel LaBreche:
38:09
Okay. Please tell everyone and you can also go to their website at Hope House SC w.org. And get more ideas and information about the services that they have. Amy, Jamie, Alex, thank you again. So now I'm going to put names together this. Great. So thanks so much for joining me. We'll be right back here at WR PQ 99 Seven Max FM and framer for reference to wrap up this week's episode.
Commercial:
38:39
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Rauel LaBreche:
39:10
Well, that wraps up our two part interview with Jamie Sathasivam and Alex Austin at Hope House. I want to finish this series by making a plea to our listeners to do whatever you can to help end this problem that tears apart our communities and our homes. If you know someone or suspect you know someone caught in an abusive situation, point them towards the resources that can help get them out. Edmund Burke, the 18th century philosopher summed up our collective responsibility to one another when he said nobody made a greater mistake. And he who did nothing because he could only do a little to a little net will help a lot. As we move further and further into this new year, let's work together to gather the momentum we need encounter these things that are working to tear us apart. Things like domestic abuse hide in the shadows. The abusers don't have the courage to come out in the open and admit what they're doing. And they keep their prey under a tight leash. So it's up to us to shine some light inside, even if it's just a tiny candle. Join us next week as we continue our New Year's resolution podcasts. As I talked with trauma recovery expert Kathy Lin's. We're going to keep probing tough topics for the next few weeks and see if we can't move the needle towards a healthier world. Little by little hope you can join us stay well
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