This is the first in my series of "New Year's Resolution" episodes. I wanted to start 2022 with shows that focus on important issues that need to change in our communities, if we are going to be the best we can be. The topic for these first two episodes is Domestic Abuse. Not a "fun" topic in any way. The goal is to elevate our awareness of the size and scope of this blight on families. Also to point out educational resources, and possibilities for preventative action in our area and, hopefully, WAY beyond.
The New Year is a time to reflect on the personal and communal things that we can do better, and to find ways to accomplish those things. My guests for this week's and next week's podcasts can help us all do better at helping those caught in a domestic abuse situation, by knowing what it looks like and helping victims to find a way out. One way out is through the services offered at Hope House of South Central Wisconsin.
Jaime Sathasivam is the Co-Executive Director for Hope House of South Central Wisconsin. Hope House serves survivors of intimate partner violence, child abuse and sexual violence in Sauk, Columbia, Juneau, Marquette and Adams Counties. Following graduate school Jaime worked with runaway and hopeless youth and found a desire to stay in trauma-based support work. Other professional experience includes working at the Director of Client Services at Rape Crisis Center in Madison for five years, and working at the State Department of Justice on the Sexual Assault Kit Initiative (SAKI) project for a year before coming to Hope House in late 2019. To decompress from work Jaime spends time with her children and enjoys traveling, and crafting.
Alex Austin has been an Outreach Advocate with Hope House of South-Central Wisconsin since November of 2020. Prior to that, Alex worked in a residential treatment center for kids and adolescents with significant mental health diagnoses. Alex has an undergraduate degree in Human Services and is currently working toward a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. In her free time, Alex enjoys spending time with her young daughter, reading and writing, spending time outside, and planning adventures.
If you want to learn more about Domestic Abuse check out these sites for more resources, information and educational opportunities:
Announcer: 0:04
Welcome to frame of reference informed intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world, in depth interviews with salt counties, leaders and professionals to help you expand in and form your frame of reference, brought to you by the max FM digital network. Now, here's your host, Rauel LaBreche.
Rauel LaBreche:
0:25
Well, welcome to another edition of frame of reference saw counties only. That's right, I am I'm sticking with only I don't know if there is anyone else, sir. I've asked Mike ganger. He's not aware of anyone. So we're going with only podcasts that deals specifically with not only the issues that affects our county and its residents, but issues that have a national and global significance to and my guests today, sadly, in my estimation, fit into that category, not sadly, because they're sad people. They're wonderful people from what I know him so far. But they also they deal with an area of our national fabric that I well, it makes me sad. So, but there's hope. In fact, that's wonderful, because the name of the organization, his Hope House, and that's one of the things that's I think wonderful about your work, honestly, is that you take people from very dark places and show them hope to get out of that dark place. So I'm talking about none other than Alex Austin, who is an advocate, outreach advocate. Did you say okay, yes, outreach advocate, Alex Austin, who is the outreach advocate for Hope House and we'll, we'll find out more about what that means and all that good stuff. So we get into it. And here I'm going for this. Okay. Jamie Safa says VM in civil, civil. Jamie Safa Sivam, I am going to get this name folks before the admin Jamie is the CO executive director of Hope House, and thank God, she's a gracious person, because otherwise she'd be throwing things at me by now. Because I've been trying to learn how to say her name correctly. For what, 15 minutes now. And what she told me you're not getting any better. But Jamie, thank you so much for taking time on both your schedules to do this. It's It's wonderful to be able to talk about something as sensitive and difficult. But I think it's important for people to know, we can't I think for too long our culture's and probably civilization in general has stuck its head in the sand about these sorts of things and tried to say, oh, that's just that happens all the time. Or, you know, whatever the excuses are that people use. And the fact of the matter is, it's not okay. It's not okay to not talk about it's not okay to not do something about it. But and we are talking about basically abuse in households, battered wives battered children, things that most of us I think will go, oh, gosh, yes, that's terrible. But when it comes down to it, do we do anything about it? Do we understand what we can and should do about it? And I hope that's part of what we can talk about today. So, anyways, to start on a little, I guess, funner topic. You know, of course, I try to always start this podcast with favorite things. So one of these days I'm going to we're going to get Julie Andrews to come down here something and get a BMI ASCAP release on using her song for this, but this is my attempt to just kind of break the ice and get people thinking so there's no right or wrong answers to these questions. You're totally fine with going in thinking about it for a while that's fine, too. But it's totally rockin for st comes in mind, spit it out. Okay, if you come back and listen to this later and you say not my favorite color is and blue. I really like red that you know, it's the way it is. Right? So some days you're blue some days you're red. Anyway, so let's start out with favorite food, Alex
Alex Austin:
3:51
mac and cheese.
Rauel LaBreche:
3:52
Really? Do you like that mac and cheese based like up in Lake Delton where they have all the different kinds?
Alex Austin:
3:56
Yes, it's so good. I don't eat it very often but what
Rauel LaBreche:
4:01
they do like it to me that's kind of like you know, evil chocolate. You know I do evil things with Mac where you're like, I am eating way more of this than probably should right? It's amazing. Go do without any carbs. I think that's wonderful. Oh, yeah, calories are dairy. Yep. Fine. How about you, Jamie? I'm not trying to last name. Sorry, Jamie. But what's your favorite food?
Jamie Sathasivum:
4:21
Pizza?
Rauel LaBreche:
4:22
Pizza?
Jamie Sathasivum:
4:23
I'm an easy one.
Rauel LaBreche:
4:23
Any particular toppings on pizza?
Jamie Sathasivum:
4:26
No, I can mix it up.
Rauel LaBreche:
4:27
Really?
Jamie Sathasivum:
4:27
Anything with cheese and sauce and crust? I'm good.
Rauel LaBreche:
4:30
Even like anchovies.
Jamie Sathasivum:
4:32
So no, I mean, okay, let's
Rauel LaBreche:
4:36
Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. You know, the one I have. I don't know. I can't necessarily find people that agree with this. But green peppers. Like I can eat most supreme pizzas have green peppers. But I feel like green peppers are an obnoxious vegetable. You know, cuz when green peppers are there, it's like oh, here you know and they like, take over for everything. You can have pepperoni on a pizza and the green pepper is like rivaling the pepperoni for you know flavor and
Jamie Sathasivum:
5:01
strong taste
Rauel LaBreche:
5:01
I think there should be like some sort of organization that says you know green peppers get it under control kind of thing though might another probably wouldn't ever catch up How about favorite quote Jamie?
Jamie Sathasivum:
5:13
Oh gosh to max me No, that's a hard one
Rauel LaBreche:
5:17
I had somebody I was talking to not long ago and he said you know he does a quart a day for his organization's newsletter so he sees so many great quotes that he it's hard for him to like siphon through or you know, filter through and get just one
Jamie Sathasivum:
5:30
I can think of so many but not right now.
Rauel LaBreche:
5:32
Well just just blurt one out one that you think is you come back to fairly regularly Alex
Alex Austin:
5:38
no I have nothing no. No.
Rauel LaBreche:
5:41
So
Alex Austin:
5:41
nervous little
Rauel LaBreche:
5:42
Okay, well, let's come back to that one that okay, we'll come back do you have a you have a favorite place to go when you want to de stress not at a podcast? Probably right? Because this is stressful enough. Right? So no sir plate thing you'd like to do or a place you'd like to go to when you just need to chill.
Jamie Sathasivum:
5:56
I mean, I love to travel. So we take multiple vacations a year and it's seems like a requirement in our house. ur whole family needs a beach a few times a year so anything with a beach but if I need something immediate, I guess just a bathtub without kids. There you go. Okay, private space. Relax and not think and not talk.
Rauel LaBreche:
6:14
Do you like to do like the whole candle things and aromatherapy at all? I know some people
Jamie Sathasivum:
6:18
don't have time for that
Alex Austin:
6:19
small kids 20 minutes before they start banging down the door. So
Rauel LaBreche:
6:24
I've always thought that looks like so like peaceful and people show that movie. So I'm like, Who has the time?
Alex Austin:
6:29
Yeah, they don't show the kids on the other side of the door like sticking their fingers under mom. When
Rauel LaBreche:
6:35
you get done with a long day at work or something you know, who wants to go to all the trouble lighting all those candles getting better? It's just like, just get me into the waters. I wish I had a hot tub too. You know? Cuz then it seems like it's probably easier to even do that.
Jamie Sathasivum:
6:46
Yeah. You know, bad watching Netflix. Anything relaxing? Yeah. Okay,
Rauel LaBreche:
6:50
cool. Cool. So one traveling we talk about that? Because anything with a beach? Oh, yeah. Like the water lapping and all the whole thing just
Jamie Sathasivum:
6:58
warm weather beaches? Tropical. Oh, that's good.
Rauel LaBreche:
7:01
Or in Wisconsin? That sure?
Jamie Sathasivum:
7:03
Yeah. Isn't that around here?
Rauel LaBreche:
7:04
Not a whole lot. That's for sure. How about you Alex? Favorite thing or place to go?
Alex Austin:
7:10
I like we have a cabin up north. I like to go to Okay. I haven't made it up there that often this year, but. And I guess if it's something that's immediate. I like the trails around. I live about an hour north of here. So there's a couple trails up there that I've like there's one out by Fort McCoy that has a little waterfalls. Okay, like that. So
Rauel LaBreche:
7:32
that's always cool when there's that sort of nature thing. And I know I've read multiple studies that have talked about how during COVID The people that spend some extra time getting outside doing walks whatever. Yeah, that significantly distressed those folks and you know, did better things for their blood blood pressure overall? Hell yeah. You know, so really felt like that was in some ways, one of the blessings of COVID was it made people get out and see the outdoors more, right?
Alex Austin:
7:57
So slow down. Yeah, appreciate things that we don't usually have time to
Rauel LaBreche:
8:01
Write Right? Or don't don't at least take time, right? How about a favorite book, or favorite author?
Jamie Sathasivum:
8:08
We were joking that you were going to ask. I read such different types of books. I sometimes am reading biographies, and sometimes fiction, and I read a lot of things around like Missoula, and around sexual assault and things that are related to work. And so and say my name by Chanel.
Rauel LaBreche:
8:31
Okay. So is there a particular like, when you gravitate to a biography, are there particular kinds of people that you like to read about?
Jamie Sathasivum:
8:40
All of them? I'm not I don't discriminate at all. I'm open to anything, I really do have a very varied reading. Okay.
Rauel LaBreche:
8:47
That's a good sign. I think I'm kind of the same way. I'll read self help books, you know, read about particular historical events. There's a lot of
Jamie Sathasivum:
8:55
Barak Obama and Georgia. Yeah, I'm good. To see everyone's opinions. Yeah.
Rauel LaBreche:
9:00
Who's the there's a radio broadcast within a broadcaster interviewer that talks about, be prepared for everyone to be an expert in something. So and then once you find out what that thing is, you can really explore it and usually it's pretty amazing. You know, so George Bush is an expert in some things. Barak Obama's an expert and other things. Yeah. So yeah, excellent. So Alex, here.
Alex Austin:
9:24
Um, so I am actually a doctoral student in psychology. So that's all I read is a lot of books. Sorry. Yeah, that's all I have time to do was mostly I don't even have time to read those books. Um, but lately, I've been reading a lot about and this is actually pretty relevant for our conversation too, but about trauma and somatic therapy. So like the physical part of it and how trauma lives in the body. Okay. And Peter, Peter Levine is really a well known name in that area. And then there's another book that we actually Have that we just got the Body Keeps the Score by? What is her name? Bessel. Vander Kolk. Yeah. Yeah, so those are really good ones, because I think a lot of people don't realize how much the body holds on to that imprint of trauma. Sure. So even if you, you know, have worked through things, cognitively, there's still pieces that are left behind. So that's been really interesting for me to read about lately
Rauel LaBreche:
10:24
is that almost like muscle memory, where you are more intense, because of the intensity of the thing that happened,
Alex Austin:
10:31
yeah, so a lot of it has to do with like, when you go through a traumatic experience, a lot of the time you're immobilized, or you're not able to protect yourself by getting away or defending yourself or whatever that may be. So your body is going to repeat these series of movements in a lot on a lot smaller scale, obviously, you know, over and over and over keeping you in like a hyper vigilant state. So like always on edge fight or flight, until you're able to reconcile that by actually completing that. And that's what Peter Levine does, he does a type of therapy called somatic experiencing, where he'll kind of go into that somatic memory, you don't even necessarily have to bring it up cognitively. Because a lot of the time you can't remember it when it's a super traumatic experience. And kind of going through that. And he's very good at noticing, like the nuances that people present in their bodies that they don't even notice. And then it oftentimes will trigger that memory. And then it can come out in narrative. And yeah, it's really, really interesting. Almost
Rauel LaBreche:
11:34
sounds like micro expressions and that Yeah, absolutely. Um, but more or the entire body instead of just how people will look for facial things.
Alex Austin:
11:41
Yeah, yeah. It's pretty amazing how like, the way our body reacts and stores things. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
Rauel LaBreche:
11:47
you think about our, you know, our brains are trying to make sense of things. So make sense brains connects to the body. So I know I've talked with Kathy lens, I mentioned her before we started recording and how she talks about people being in those acute trauma situations and you have fight flight or fawn are kind of the three major techniques that people you know, we'll get into, and I'm assuming that that's something of his work to analyze is that how about um, well, I'll just do this favorite bird.
Jamie Sathasivum:
12:24
I'm gonna go with Flamingo nice. I
Rauel LaBreche:
12:28
really like the pink flamingo thing like Bascom Hill that whole Yes,
Jamie Sathasivum:
12:32
yeah. Yeah, that's one of those things, too.
Rauel LaBreche:
12:35
You can't be every time I see that. I still kind of you know who thought of that. And what can you imagine all the people like up early in the morning sticking the flamingos? Where's Phil? He's got like a whole truck. Free I didn't wake up. I'm sorry, Phil. We need those for NGOs. How about you, Alex?
Alex Austin:
12:54
I'm gonna have to go with a peacock. Peacock. Yeah, well, they're so pretty. Oh, yeah.
Rauel LaBreche:
12:59
Isn't it too late? Is that another one of those were the female has all the colors are the male the male. Yeah, so the women are Yeah. So amazing. How on different that is? Yeah. Yeah, except him. So here I am in my boring clothes. So obviously, I'm not a peacock. How about favorite animal in general? Okay, so we've talked about birds take them off the table. Favorite animal?
Alex Austin:
13:26
An elephant? Elephant? That's really
Jamie Sathasivum:
13:29
smart.
Rauel LaBreche:
13:30
I don't think I've ever had anyone say elephant
Alex Austin:
13:32
before. Yeah, they're really really cool animals. They really are.
Rauel LaBreche:
13:35
They really are, I think of how, how expressive they are. And people don't realize that until you really start looking at elephants more closely that they just have so much more going on inside then. We think of them as these big lumbering animals but like the maternal instinct in elephants is so I mean, the things that a mother elephant will go to through to protect her young
Alex Austin:
14:01
I actually saw something not too long ago to about like, they actually display like ritualistic behavior, which I thought was really cool, too. So that's really interesting.
Rauel LaBreche:
14:10
Yeah, like the grieving process on someone is gone that there's a real there's a process there that they work through. It's like the Elisabeth Kubler Ross, you know, elephant. Yeah, you know? Yeah, they do go through that same sort of denial. You know, so Goodness gracious. How about you Jamie?
Jamie Sathasivum:
14:28
Oh, I'm so simple. I'm I love a good sweet dog. Or even a horse. Sure. love riding a horse but sure. Um, basic.
Rauel LaBreche:
14:38
Basic is good. fundamentals are good.
Alex Austin:
14:40
Dogs are great. Yeah, we can't can't knock them.
Rauel LaBreche:
14:43
Yeah, in fact, that's one of the few things that really gets me angry is people that abused dogs. Yeah, you know, it's like, that's just right up there. I'm sure you have, you know, horror stories of obviously, there are things worse than that. But
Alex Austin:
14:55
that's definitely a part of, you know, the things that we deal with too. Yeah,
Rauel LaBreche:
14:59
yeah. I would think, are there particular dogs their particular breed that you think? No, we
Jamie Sathasivum:
15:05
have had some amazing mutts and I love them. But I'm thinking, well not this isn't a mutt I'm thinking our next dog might be a Bernese Mountain Dog mixed with a poodle. I'm kind of in for the no shed. Okay, nice. I don't want any more that for hanging around. But I'm, I'm missing my dog companion. We lost ours last year. So. Yeah, so we,
Rauel LaBreche:
15:24
we had beagles for a long time. And one of them Porthos she was such a shatter. And you know, in fact, I had to replace the furnace filter more often when she was around still because of that. And now we have too much better, you know, just rescue animals that we got. And neither one of them really shed them. Like, there's no furball. Around, you know, behind the doors and whatever, right? Yeah. So anyone that has dogs out there knows that pain, but boy, it's a small price to pay for the unconditional love that you get. Okay, I'm gonna wrap up with this one, because I think this one segues nicely into the next part of our program. But do you have a favorite memory, or something that you know will trigger a favorite memory where when it happens, you just you go back to a place in your childhood earlier in your life, that just always it's like, it's a good place to go to. Some people call it a happy place. But you know that this is more I think the thing that you tend to realize how formative it was for you and how, you know, that was kind of a touchstone time maybe. Once go for it,
Alex Austin:
16:27
I could start so it's kind of funny, because I was laughing about this question when we first got this because I'm like, I don't have a lot of memories from my childhood. But I actually doing some work in school, I just remembered one that was pretty impactful for me. I don't even know how old I was probably five. And it was the middle of the night. And my mom came in woke me up in the middle of the night, and took me out to the driveway. And she had blankets and pillows, and we just laid on the driveway and looked at the stars at when I don't know how long we were there for. But I remember that as something like that. I'll never forget that. I don't remember what we talked about. I don't know what we did. But that's the thing that I wonder about that. And like that feeling of safety and that bond.
Rauel LaBreche:
17:13
Did you ever do it again? With her? Yeah,
Alex Austin:
17:16
no. It's just that one time. Yeah.
Rauel LaBreche:
17:18
Interesting. Did she ever express like a real interest in the stars?
Alex Austin:
17:22
Not really. And I you know what, I don't know that I've ever brought it up to her. But I might do that, because it did just like kind of resurface for me not too long ago.
Rauel LaBreche:
17:31
Sure. What's interesting, too, how those moments where you have intimacy and universality at the same time, you know, where you're, you're bonding close to someone right there. But you're also aware that infinite expanse, you know that we're around. And there's something really I think humbling, and yet gentle, and awesome. And there's so it's kind of neat when we have those things that are like, almost diametrically opposed but unified at the same time, like, oh, yeah, so. But if you don't know what we're talking about, you need to think about this question. How about you, Jamie?
Jamie Sathasivum:
18:06
I had a bunch flashing through my mind as we've been talking, but I think the purest, simplest thing was that every Thursday growing up, we would just go out to eat and just have family time. And no one had to cook and no one had to clean and it was no stress. And it was a weeknight so that no one was thinking about like friends or anything else. So it was just really like chill family fun, time to hang out and talk. And so I just remember the simplicity of that.
Rauel LaBreche:
18:32
Sure. Why how many people to read about where they say gathering together around a table is one of the most significant things we can do for bonding with one another, you know, and that actually, that's one of the things that worries me with modern culture is kids, people are doing that they're gathering but they all have their phone in front of them. So my kids bless their hearts. They they were the ones that said, you know, when we sit down at a table, you know, we're gonna put our phones away dad. So because I was one of the worst ones I was working in it. I was always so used to like, I gotta check and see if there's a disaster that I got to deal with. So and they were like, Dad,
Unknown:
19:07
put your phone away. Like, Oh, okay.
Rauel LaBreche:
19:11
Well bless it be the children, you know. But anyways, folks, my guest today are Jaime, Sathasivum.
Jamie Sathasivum:
19:21
You got it.
Rauel LaBreche:
19:22
I had to go really slowly, but I got it. Okay, good, co executive director of Hope House and Alex Austin, who is an outreach advocate for the same organization, we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. When we come back, we're gonna dig into the what I call the big thing segment and talk about the organization that they work with, as well as the challenges that they face and hopefully educate us all about what this problem looks like and how we can potentially solve it or at least mitigate and alleviate it, because it might be a process it might not be Oh, one shot one stop one size fits all situation but we're going to fix it somehow. We got here on 99 Seven Max FM's digital network and frame of reference.
Commercial:
20:12
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Rauel LaBreche:
20:49
My guest today are Jamie and Alex. Those of you that don't know about whole POS it is an agency here in Baraboo. In Sauk County, the county seat of Baraboo, but whole policy is not unique in that is it part of a larger network of Hope houses or is it just independent of any other organization?
Jamie Sathasivum:
21:07
Yeah, we're our own standalone, nonprofit organization we serve SOC, Columbia Juneau market and Adams counties. But every county in the state of Wisconsin has their own independent version of Hope House they have their own domestic violence and sexual assault agencies.
Rauel LaBreche:
21:22
Okay, cuz I think I even looked up when we were getting ready for prepper. Thursday, I've in the past looked up for Hope House to find like a logo to use and advertising or whatnot. And it seemed to me there were other agencies that even call themselves Hope House across the nation, but they wouldn't be affiliated.
Jamie Sathasivum:
21:37
Oh, I'm sure Yep. Nope. We our own independent org. But yes, okay.
Rauel LaBreche:
21:40
Okay. So tell me a little bit about the history were worded Hope House come from? How did it start? How long have you been around? I mean, all of the kind of the nuts and bolts of how Paulson were or it's wrong. What's your history?
Jamie Sathasivum:
21:54
Yeah, I mean, we've been serving the community for decades now. And we're located in Baraboo. We've been in Baraboo for a number of years, right, our current Resource Center and have been there for about a decade at this point. And just serving victims of domestic violence, sexual violence, child abuse, neglect. And working with many, many hundreds of families each year, it is definitely a an issue that touches somebody that everybody knows. Or everyone knows someone, I guess is the better way of saying that. Sure. Who's been touched by those, those types of violence?
Rauel LaBreche:
22:30
Did you say before we restore recording, I heard you say that they're the prevalence of it, or they're at the frequency of it. It's like one in four families on average? Yeah, um, sort of abuse in their constellation of members. So which is does that? Does that mean that one in four have an abuser that's directly in the immediate family or just is abusive in other ways? How does that stack up?
Jamie Sathasivum:
22:57
Yeah, so domestic violence doesn't have to be exclusively intimate partner violence, it can be violence within the family violence within a roommate situation, it is someone who you are closely connected with who is physically or emotionally violent towards you, and abusive towards you. And we work with people who have experienced a wide variety of experiences. It's a spectrum, right? So and it's, it's, there's no no bad reason to call Hope House and process, we have a 24 hour helpline. And we and Alex can speak to this because she answers the hotline a lot and talks with survivors. And we we we talk to people who are experiencing financial abuse and emotional abuse, and obviously physical abuse, too, and we have a shelter where we're able to take in individuals and families. And I think another misconception, aside from the fact that it doesn't happen here is you know, gender, it doesn't discriminate based on race, sex orientation, none of it, it's all it's all inclusive.
Rauel LaBreche:
23:59
Is there a common factor a common like precursor to it or like indicate indicative factors in a person's like upbringing or, you know, employment or whatever, you know, other factors that are that contribute to do you think
Jamie Sathasivum:
24:13
there's trends, certainly trauma, early childhood trauma, experiencing violence in your own home could be a precursor, but it's not exclusive. And it really is an issue of power and control. That really is the single dominant factor is that it is someone deciding that they are going to show dominance or control over another individual.
Alex Austin:
24:35
Sorry, it does tend to be cyclical in generations though. like Jamie said, experiencing that in your own home. You know, you're going to go one way or the other until you can bring awareness to you know, that's what's happening. Domestic violence is calculated, you know, they they may not it may not be consciously calculated, but the things that they're doing they're doing to to maintain power and control. So if you grow up in A violent home, the chances of you either becoming an abuser or becoming a victim are significantly increased.
Rauel LaBreche:
25:07
So there are it sounds to me like there are strategies that an abuser has developed and just continues to go to. It's like their go to box of, if this doesn't work, I'll do this shit, that doesn't work. I'll do this.
Alex Austin:
25:20
Yeah, I can actually speak to that. That's one of the things that I wrote down, there's something called the power and control wheel. And Jamie mentioned the different types of abuse because oftentimes, you know, when we think of domestic violence, our minds automatically go to physical abuse and sexual abuse. But we asked, while those are the most violent, like, violent, I guess, is the right way to say it, um, types, there's a lot of different elements to it. Sure. She mentioned the emotional piece, which is huge. That's usually used as a means of, you know, gaining power, abusers are very effective at pretty much erasing the identity of their victim. So through putting them down gaslighting, which is a term that we use a lot. And for people who might not know what that means it's basically making their victim question their own reality, making them think that they're crazy. Telling them no, that didn't happen like that, or, you know, making you question your own memory when you were right there, and you experienced something. And they say, that's not how it happened. So that can be really effective at just making making the victim very reliant on their abuser.
Rauel LaBreche:
26:28
Not trusting your own perception of that dismantles your own competence. I played that part that played gaslighter gaslight, I played the part of that husband years and years ago. So it was interesting. Well, yeah, and it was interesting, because as an actor, I had to figure out, okay, what is this guy's reason for doing this? Because, you know, at least in theater, we always approach it and say, No person sees themself as an antagonist. So, you know, the abuser has all these, you know, kind of methods and rationales for why this is an appropriate, you know, absolutely appropriate behavior. You know, I, in some ways, I think there's a sickness even about, I'm helping them. Absolutely, you know, I'm helping them by doing this, because I'm giving them the structure and the discipline and whatever that they need. It's like, Yeah, but there's so many other ways to do that, that are not destructive, right?
Alex Austin:
27:18
Yeah. Yeah. So and it's all about like them, the abuser getting their own needs met, you know, and it's very, it's a very selfish thing off, you know, we hear the term narcissist a lot narcissistic abuse, not all abusers are going to be narcissist, but it's definitely, you know, they overlap a lot. Sure. I tend to think that the emotional piece is, and I don't want to discount any physical or sexual stuff, but it's very, I almost think it's worse, you know, the bruises and things like that they're going to heal, but the psychological damage and the emotional damage, that's what takes years and years and years to overcome. That's one of the biggest barriers to leaving, because again, after years of not trusting yourself, and you know, not not even knowing who you are you You forget how to make decisions for yourself. Sure. So that can be really challenging,
Rauel LaBreche:
28:06
when you think of like the fear and the anger that can be so internalized and immobilize us, because I, you know, I can think of people in my life that I are in abusive relationships, and they, they can't even really confront it. No, no, yeah, just because they, they're convinced that it will make it worse. If they do,
Alex Austin:
28:25
and it might, yeah, like, that's definitely something to note. And, you know, leaving when, when a victim decides to leave is the most dangerous time for them. And it's also very difficult, because a lot of the times they're so reliant on their abuser, financially, you know, emotionally, they've used their abusers isolated them to the point that they have no family and friends to call, maybe the family and friends that they did have left, you know, maybe the maybe the victim has tried to leave several times, and they keep going back. So family and friends are eventually going to give up on that person. Or at least say, I can't deal with this, you know, or that's
Jamie Sathasivum:
29:02
the fear, right? There's this deep, internalized shame to and to admit to a family member that I've been abused can be very difficult. And you have to have a supportive network around you.
Rauel LaBreche:
29:16
Well, there's a generational component to this too, isn't there like, I've heard or in read of families, where a woman tries to go to her mom, say and explain, this is what's happening to me. And the the, the mom will say something to the effect of, that's just the way men are or, you know, she's always been that kind of emotional person or, you know, whatever. So they, the parent can sometimes have a tendency to even deny their own situations of abuse or have been told to you know, normalize it so much that they don't even they can't be an effective counselor. Yeah, right.
Alex Austin:
29:51
Yes. And add you know, spiritual beliefs to that sometimes that can be a big barrier as well. If you try to go you know, if you have certain religious beliefs that say you should you know, Stay in your marriage no matter what, right? Or yeah, if your parents have that same sort of dynamic going on, and mom is going to tell you, you know, you need to stay there. And what are you doing? You know, what are you doing to make him so upset? Yeah.
Jamie Sathasivum:
30:14
And if they have financial control, I mean, it's really difficult to think about taking my small children out of a home and pulling them away from a father who may or may not be abusive to them. Yep. If I don't have the funds to be able to support and stand, you know, up and get and get that that's the those are the areas where Hope House can come in and say, let's, let's talk through your goals, right? Because it's not our goals. It's what what do you want from your life? And how can we stand behind you and support you through that? And I think that's what our advocates are so gifted at doing is empowering survivors and standing with them as they go through that process.
Rauel LaBreche:
30:52
I'm, I can't help but think of to that. I wonder, are there situations where an abuser actually tries to make themselves the victim?
Alex Austin:
31:01
Absolutely. Like textbook, okay.
Rauel LaBreche:
31:04
I mean, because that seems to me like one of the ways that I've seen it manifest itself is that I have to do this, you know, she makes me Oh, yeah, he makes me have to behave like this, because it's the only way to get through or whatever.
Alex Austin:
31:17
That's another piece in the power and control wheel is minimizing, denying and blaming. So that's when you know, abuse happens. And the abuser will tell you, they'll minimize it. Like it wasn't that bad. Other people have it so much worse, or straight up, deny it, you know, it didn't happen like that. I never did that. Or blaming the victim? Yeah, I wouldn't have to do this, then I did this, you know. So if you were better than I wouldn't have to treat you this way, right. And then, I mean, I see it all the time. Once a survivor does leave, I could say probably every single one of my clients, the abuser will be on Facebook, just trashing them. Sure, telling family and friends, and you know, everybody that they know that you know that this person is crazy, and that they did all this bad stuff. With the kids, sometimes they'll try to go to certain agencies and try to, you know, throw the victim under the bus. And that's another big barrier to leaving, too is, you know, a lot of the time the abuser is going to tell them, you know, there's no way you can raise these kids on your own, like, I'm going to take you to court and take the kids. So, which is one of the greatest fears and the victim knows, like, I don't have a leg to stand on. Because you know, he controls all my money. I don't have a job. I don't have any family and friends. So yeah, it's a big, big barrier.
Rauel LaBreche:
32:32
And even if they do, I mean, it strikes me that when like in relationships, where both husband and wife are working on whether it's the husband or the wife, I think tends to be the wife, but they may not. Their money may be thrown into a pool right away. Right? So even though they're actually making weight, making wages, and in some cases, I think making more money than the abuser is they don't they don't really have that control over it right to even know where it's going.
Alex Austin:
32:58
Oh, yeah, right, they'll just take it and they don't have access to it, or the victim is made to ask for money. I mean, there's times the abusers aren't even working. And you know, this, the victim is the one out there doing all of that, and probably getting accused of A, B, and C when she gets home. And then all of her money is going to him and he's controlling it all. So
Rauel LaBreche:
33:18
as soon I interrupted your control wheel. Okay, so we started out with we talked
Alex Austin:
33:23
about the emotional piece, the isolation, the minimizing, denying and blaming using the kids. So like the threats to take them when, you know, the when they're separated, using the kids to send messages back and forth using pickups and drop offs to harass. And then the threats to take the kids. I think I said that. Jamie, and yeah, we mentioned the financial and economic abuse, the coercion, coercion and threats. So threats can be, I mean, extremely effective at keeping a victim under control. I guess. Just the threats to take the kids threats to harm threats to you know, tell certain things. I mean, sometime I'm gonna
Rauel LaBreche:
34:05
call the authority Yeah, cuz you're doing this and I'll report that but
Alex Austin:
34:09
there's like, a lot of the time in, in, in domestic violence, there's also an element of substance abuse. So that's a big thing that abusers can use and threaten their victim with like, yeah, saying, you know, out to out, I'll call the cops on you. You're an unfit mother, whatever. Not only that, but sometimes they can use the substances themselves to keep their victim under control as well. So yeah, intimidation, so screwed up. Yeah, sorry. No, it is okay. It is. Yeah, the intimidation. That's like, talking about abusing pets. That's, that's one of those tactics.
Rauel LaBreche:
34:46
So if I didn't do this to this dog, imagine what I can do to you. Yeah. Yeah, that's Twister. Yep.
Alex Austin:
34:51
Yep. destroying their property. What else just things like you know, certain actions or gestures that you know, and it can get really messy sometimes. Because when you're in a relationship with someone for a long time, and they are a certain way you learn, you know what different? What different words say what are what, what different words mean, what different gestures mean. And it might not look like that to anybody else. So even when it comes to going to court and stuff like the abuser could say something that sounds completely normal to everybody else, or do something that seems completely normal, but the victim will be like, No, I know what he means by this, like this is going to happen. So it can get really, really messy and confusing. And over
Rauel LaBreche:
35:32
from that talks about how the a friend of hers was so keyed into violent states and precursors to the violence happening, that she habitually would say, I hope you're not angry, please don't be angry at me. And she would repeatedly say that, and she didn't even realize that she was saying that regularly. And it was because of that trauma in her life that she just was too so sensitive to what the cues were, that she would preempt it by trying to make sure you know, please don't be mad at me. I'm you know, so constantly kind of fawning, I guess ultimately
Alex Austin:
36:08
internalizing that blame that is being put on them.
Rauel LaBreche:
36:10
Yeah, yeah. So are you. i One thing that keeps coming up, as we're talking about this is, so you're on the phone with people regularly. Right, Alex? And I'm sure you've done your time on the phone as well, Jamie? How do you emotionally stay in a place where you can help instead of getting hopeless yourself or getting so tied up? I mean, I think of myself and I'm listening to this going, Oh, my God, if this was my life day in and day out, because I was a psychology major as an undergraduate. And I did some work with a peer counseling part of our college. And we were we were actually allowed at that point to like, counsel people that had some serious, you know, behavioral and psychological issues. One of the people I worked with was a woman that was had suicidal thoughts. And she finally got to the point where after we would talk about or whatnot, she actually acted out on it. And I, at that point, felt like, I was trying to counselor, I was trying to help her, and she still tried to do it. I don't know if I can do this, you know, be a part of that kind of process. So I look at anything part of me wants to go, Oh, my God, bravo. But also like, what can we do to help support people doing your work? Because it's got to be like, just so difficult to hear these things over and over again. And yet, you know, there's a technique right, you have a toolkit you can pull on say, Okay, this is this, we're going to deal with this this way. Right? Yeah, I'm putting in words. But how do you do it?
Jamie Sathasivum:
37:35
Jamie, you want to take that one? Sure. Yeah, I mean, obviously, some, some situations are harder than others. And some days are harder than others. But I think the as an agency, and just as a community of people who support this, you know, nationwide, there's just things that we know about what we have to do to sustain ourselves through this work. And that involves good self care processes. It involves having open communication with your, with your supervisors, and with leaders in your agency, it involves having those relationships with the other colleagues that do this work and being able to receive and provide that support back and forth. Because we can't go in the community and talk about I can't go home at night and talk with my partner about any of the calls that I've taken or any of the things I've seen or heard during the day. So it really is about setting up those trauma barriers as much as you can, within within the walls of your agency to make sure that people know that wellness is prioritized, that days off are prioritized. We have really good PTO policies and practices and, and just making sure that your, your your team all understands that. It's an open door policy, you have a rough day, something happens. Come talk, let's process let's support. And sometimes it may mean you go home early, because you just have had too much for that day. And I wish I could say there is this like magic button to push but there isn't. You know, it's a field where people do burn out quickly, where people get a lot of really powerful experiences, but decide they can't sustain it forever. But those who do sustain it, I think find what works for them for that self care piece, and are really proactive, and taking on that self care piece, because you can't wait till you're burned out to try and address it too late. Sure.
Rauel LaBreche:
39:20
Why seems like you have to have that balance of self care techniques, processes that you go through, as well as sensitivity enough to understand where you are in that spectrum. And we talk
Jamie Sathasivum:
39:32
about boundaries all the time, right. It's all about helping our clients find their boundaries and their limitations and, and walls. And we have to be able to communicate that with each other about our own too. And knowing that there may be cases maybe something's touch our own experiences too close and it may be, hey, this case is really important. I know someone really good needs to take it but I can't do it. It's too close to me. It's touching me in a way that's not effective for that client. I need to I need to refer them to another one of my colleagues. And it's really about just knowing that people have their back and support them in in making those decisions. Are there
Rauel LaBreche:
40:08
commonalities, like if there's someone listening to this right now, and they've always thought they'd like to be involved in something, are there? Are there self checks that you would you think would be beneficial to do to make sure you're prepared for being involved in an agency like hope helps, you know, being an advocate or whatever that
Alex Austin:
40:23
may be? I think, like Jamie brought up a really good point, with our boundaries and stuff. And I think it's just all about knowing yourself really well. And knowing what your triggers are, and recognizing when you might be what you know, when you might be triggered, or when something is touching you in a way that is going to mean that you're not going to be able to effectively serve a client. As far as like, assessing yourself, as far as like, if you're ready, or,
Rauel LaBreche:
40:54
you know, I mean, yeah, sort of that. Yeah. I mean, set yourself up to be like, Oh, no, you're way too sensitive for this, or I think,
Alex Austin:
41:00
I mean, I'm, I am a very sensitive person. Yeah, we are all we're all, you know, empathy is probably, I mean, there's no shortage of that in our agency. There shouldn't be and also no shortage of, you know, sensitivity or, you know, feelings. We're all but yeah, definitely
Rauel LaBreche:
41:19
somebody that's just highly analytical of things and seems very cerebral, will they not do well on this one? You need those people to
Alex Austin:
41:25
know we, I mean, yeah, we definitely need all all of that. And I think just that desire to help and be involved is enough to, you know, know that you can at least contribute something. And I mean, I know my first day answering the phones I was a nervous wreck, but you get used to it, you know, you get better you learn. You learn from every situation and every every call you take so
Rauel LaBreche:
41:48
sure, yeah. What is it Billy Joel's there's something about our mistakes of the only thing we can truly call our own. I don't know if that's true or not. But you know, and I think those that's one of those things where it's like, oh, God, why did I say that? You know, you know, you know, I'm going to
Alex Austin:
42:02
try this. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Rauel LaBreche:
42:05
What is the trial by fire, right. So yeah, folks, my guest today are Alex Austin and Jamie Safa says, so they are both agents. Jamie is the CO executive director Alex is the advocate, outreach advocate for Hope House, which if you haven't looked them up in the time that you've been listening to this, you can certainly go online to www home
Jamie Sathasivum:
42:29
Hope House Hope House st W, like South Central wisconsin.org.
Rauel LaBreche:
42:33
Okay, we're gonna take another quick break to wrap up this episode. We'll be right back with closing thoughts, but I'm going to continue this conversation because they gave me enough time to be able to continue this conversation. I'm Darren Welcome to use it. So join us next week to when we continue the conversation. Talk about some stats, talk about some warning signs and indicators, and hopefully some some techniques and methods some ways out of it all. Where's the hope and hope house right? So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back on 99 Seven Max FM's digital network and frame of reference.
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43:09
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Rauel LaBreche:
43:40
Domestic abuse. What an awful horrible, no good, rotten thing to have happening and an evil. And yet as you've just heard from my guests, it is here in our area. It is here in our free, best country in the world. It is here in our modern internet and social media connected world. And I hope you agree with me on this. It needs to no longer be tolerated. We need to somehow as communities as a nation as human beings on this planet to eradicated we're so proud of having removed smallpox and polio from the world. What about domestic and indeed any form of abuse? Can one of our New Year's resolutions be to do whatever each one of us can to end it? I know in my circle of friends and family I need to do can do a much better job of watching for it and take steps to stop it. We celebrate in this country Martin Luther King day in January, and he was once quoted as saying, I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroes great stumbling block in his stride towards freedom is not the White Citizens Council member or Ku Klux Klan are but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice. Perhaps our fight for the end of abuse in any form, whether it be domestic LGBTQ disability, sexual, or racial needs to begin with fighting moderation and tolerance, perhaps our frame of reference needs to be one that includes looking clearly at what our moderation is costing instead of looking away because it's too hard to do something. Join us next week as we continue in this discussion with Jamie and Alex, and join us in the discussion and the solutions. Stay well
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